Saxophone Forum


by NeedAFix
(6 posts)
10 years ago

Bent necks

I was recently repairing a Mark VI tenor, and as I was looking over the neck, I noticed some STRANGE things. The neck had been bent, and some incompetent repair tech had attempted to straighten it and remove dents. The tech actually perpetuated the problem, and covered up with two side patches on the neck, along with a second brace along the underside. I am a sax player, but I often look at instruments as a repair tech, not as a player. So, question: At this point, the old neck should probably be replaced... is there a comperable neck that could replace this old Mark VI neck, or is it best to continue to repair these spreading cracks in the brass?? Do you players notice any distubance with either patches on the neck, or using a comperable, but different, neck? I, as a repair tech, would vote for a replacement. Any feedback??

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  1. by SaxMan
    (559 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: Bent necks

    deal with it, about 85 percent of a sax's personality comes from the neck and bow.

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    1. by chiamac
      (586 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: Bent necks

      well... (I may be wrong but I'll give it a shot) brass dosn't like to bend a lot. Yes, it will bend but you have to anneal it; bend a little more, anneal... The damage could have been done right away when the neck was first bendt. All the repair tech could do is try to straighten it out and brace it up. Like they did. If it plays well I would just leave it alone. If you really want to mess around with it I would take the braces and patches off. Then try and put a crap load of solder in the cracks. However then you run the risk of solder getting into the neck and messing with stuff... I would just get a new neck if it really bothers you. oh and if you do try and bend things back. ANNEAL THE DAMN THING! heat it until it is just about glowing red hot, then let it air cool. (I don't know if brass tempers in water, so I'm not going to take that risk - allthough I don't think it does) Then once you have it annealed you can beat it however you like, then anneal it again once you notice it tightening up. DO THIS OR IT WILL CRACK! Brass isn't like copper, gold, or someother soft metal (not silver, it cracks) brass will crack and it's also a bitch to work with. again, I would get a new neck if this were really annoying.

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      1. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: Bent necks

        If it sounds good, just use some duct tape! You can always use aluminized tape if you want it shiny! Actually, I think you can get Ponzol necks fitted to your horn. I'd opt for a replacement and leave the amputated limb in the case.

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        1. by NeedAFix
          (6 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Ponzol necks, huh? Never heard of 'em, gonna look it up right now. Thanks a lot, and I agree... very much so an amputated limb!!!

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      2. by NeedAFix
        (6 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: Bent necks

        First of all, the neck is already cracked. Annealing it at this point is pointless, because any further bending is going to further screw up this neck. The cracks travel alongside the octave key posts, covered by HUGE nickel-silver patches, which have also cracked along the sides. And by the way, brass IS like copper!!!! It is OVER HALF copper, in fact!! Standard brass is 70% copper, 30% zinc. But, that is beside the point... this neck is probably not too repairable, but I do know that a lot of personality of the horn comes with the neck, but if the neck is leaky and hideous, what's the point?? I do appreciate your response, but I think I'm going to tell this customer to get a new neck. I have no idea how he was playing on this leaky SOB. :)

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        1. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Oh, I missed the part where it was already cracked. Actually sax brass is a little different, also has tin in it that I know for a fact, and a maybe another element or two that each manufacturer throws in for their own mix. I know this cause gold won't bond to brass.

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        2. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          " Annealing it at this point is pointless" I would want to anneal it (if I'm trying to bend that shit around) because it will make it less brittle (it's what it does) and make it more bendable. I would defentally want to anneal something if it's cracked or showing sings of stress. It's what that process is meant to do... "And by the way, brass IS like copper!!!!" it's harder, stronger, and more brittle than copper. Yes it's like it, but it's still a whole differnt product. "I do appreciate your response, but I think I'm going to tell this customer to get a new neck. I have no idea how he was playing on this leaky SOB. :)" oh my bad... I thought you wanted to fix this neck or something. "Actually sax brass is a little different" there are so many kinds/alloys of brass out there, and yes sax brass would be differnt. Depends on what you need the metal to do and how cheap you want things. There are also lots of silver/gold alloys out there, I can think of 3 silvers (sterling, fine, 667 (or something)) and rose/green/white golds... and I know there are more. just depends on what a person needs to do. "also has tin in it" I doubt it... at least not all brasses. Tin is called the god of metals, why? Because tin will corrode silver and gold (that I know of, copper to I think) It just eats away at other metals. Some brass has lead in it, so maybe that's what you're thinking of?

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        3. by NeedAFix
          (6 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          No need to get all defensive... yes I WOULD like to repair it... it makes it hard when the customer doesn't want to spend the money though, huh?? :) But there is no need to attack any opinions... however, my original question involved replacement sax necks.... how do you feel about Ponzol necks??

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        4. by sax_maniac
          (984 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          I've not used a Ponzol neck first hand but know a guy who played one on his Mark VI tenor and was VERY happy with it. I think it's best to have them custom made to fit your horn, though, as there is variability in dimensions - especially with vintage horns. I'd guess any horn recognized brand horn made in the past 25 years is very consistent such tha one size would probably fit all. A reputable tech can expand or compress the tenon if necessary.

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        5. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          or yeah, lead. I used to have a little forge for making key cahins...i would always get the lead and tin mixed up and it would screw up the molds...they look so alike when lead is clean.

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        6. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          why would you want lead in brass? I'm sorry but I don't want to fondel a keychain that has any lead in it. it would lead to problems. which is why they hardly use lead in brass anymore.

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        7. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          yamaha saxes are made of bullet casings, which have a considerable amount of lead in them. I ahve no idea what the lead does, but I do know that there is more in it than zinc and brass, other wise you could plate a sax in gold - copper conducts electricity extremely well, zinc conducts it well enough. touching lead won't do anything - you cant get lead poisoning from touching lead. other wise trolling caught salmon would be monumentally more expensive.

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        8. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          "yamaha saxes are made of bullet casings, which have a considerable amount of lead in them. I ahve no idea what the lead does, but I do know that there is more in it than zinc and brass, other wise you could plate a sax in gold - copper conducts electricity extremely well, zinc conducts it well enough. touching lead won't do anything - you cant get lead poisoning from touching lead. other wise trolling caught salmon would be monumentally more expensive." so there is more lead in brass than brass?

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        9. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          What?!? I don't quite understand what you are asking

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        10. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          ""yamaha saxes are made of bullet casings, which have a considerable amount of lead in them. I ahve no idea what the lead does, but I do know that there is more in it than zinc and brass, other wise you could plate a sax in gold - copper conducts electricity extremely well, zinc conducts it well enough. touching lead won't do anything - you cant get lead poisoning from touching lead. other wise trolling caught salmon would be monumentally more expensive."" and I have no idea at all what you said or were trying to say.

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        11. by sax_maniac
          (984 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Yeah - The reason Mark VI's sound so good is that the metal they were made with had a high sulfur content as the brass came from melting down wartime artllery equipment (not the French bothered to use any of it - at least they made good horns out of it when they were done). So to have a horn made of old bullet casings sounds like a recipe for success to me... Am I telling the truth, or are my facts too believable to be true...

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        12. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          I don't know what the hell either of you are talkigna bout, but the yamahas are mad eof precisely the same metal that the bullet casings of the .223 from vietnam were made out of. Ask anyone who can rightly criticize a yamaha, a person that knows all sides of the story and he will tell you precisely this.

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        13. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Am I telling the truth, or are my facts too believable to be true... I have heard that before. I also think my 10M is made out of that sort of thing. However I love the sound I get so it dosn't matter how or what it's made out of.

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        14. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          ehh, I wouldnt think so. most of our stuff was over in europe and I cant imagine a hole lot of spare munitions casings being availiable in large quantities as a lot of that is still being destroyed today. (Meaning that they held on to it for a while and just started destroying it.)

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        15. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          in 39 and 41 most of our stuff was there? we were still trying to get our thumb out of our ass and into the damn war... besides, I bet the metal is the same... that would kinda make sense, or as much since as your yahama clam does. (at least until I see proof)

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        16. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          well not in 39 and 41, but then everything would be in production, I can't imagine there being a surplus of supplies when even the rouge couldn't produce enough, let alone some 45 year old saxophone factory.

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        17. by johnsonfromwisconsin
          (767 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          I don't know what he's saying either. Yamaha saxes being make of surplus or spent casings is an assertion he hasn't cared to back up. Even if they are, why would it be important? Military-grade brass has to be durable enough to retain it's shape through any combat abuse prior to firing. There is not more lead in a Yamaha than zinc or "brass" from any data I've seen, though lead can be alloyed with Brass, nowhere have I seen it established what brass alloy Yamaha uses. High lead-brass alloys do have credible structural uses, but given the forming methods used to make saxophones, it is doubtfull Yamaha uses these. C35300, for instance (62% lead) is machinable, but it's cold or hot forming properties would make it quite unsuitable for horn bores. Unclear also is what electrical conduction has to do with any of this. Plating has little to do with conductivity given the modern evaporation processes available. They can plate silver (or aluminum) to glass. I think the inaility to plate brass applies only to older plating methods or concerns a chemical reaction between gold and zinc or copper, but I could be wrong.

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        18. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          this time you did miscontsture. I didn't say there was alot more lead, just a lot. I don't even know if the saxes are mad eof spent casings, I do know that they are made of the same formula from the casings used in vietnam. YOu obviously haven't seen any data because yamaha keeps it fairly quiet. I have been told by a very many yamaha players that the metal is made of the same stuff that those bullet casings were. Why don't you go talk to your buddies at sotw, I am sure you could find a couple there that would say the same. They use electrolysis to plate saxes, it owuld be unfeasible to plate an entire instrument on all sides equally using the evoration method.

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        19. by johnsonfromwisconsin
          (767 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------- this time you did miscontsture. I didn't say there was alot more lead, just a lot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- this is what you said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- yamaha saxes are made of bullet casings, which have a considerable amount of lead in them. I ahve no idea what the lead does, but I do know that there is more in it than zinc and brass --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're own words. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't even know if the saxes are mad eof spent casings --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then why did you say they are made of bullet casings? --------------------------------------------------------------------- YOu obviously haven't seen any data because yamaha keeps it fairly quiet. I have been told by a very many yamaha players that the metal is made of the same stuff that those bullet casings were. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nice case of representing the opposite. I asserted no data or factiod about the brass used by Yamaha, you did! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been told by a very many yamaha players that the metal is made of the same stuff that those bullet casings were. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You say Yamaha keeps it's alloy formulation quiet, then you tell me that despite this, the players know what it is *somehow*. These statements are contradictory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- They use electrolysis to plate saxes, it owuld be unfeasible to plate an entire instrument on all sides equally using the evoration method. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You are probably correct that they use electroplating on saxophones due to it being cheaper and good enough for decoration. High-tech evaporation methods, however, provides a much more even surface than electroplating.

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        20. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          This is what I said: but I do know that there is more in it than zinc and brass I meant copper. Zinc and copper are the two major constituents in brass. I said there is more to sax brass than copper and zinc. That was a simplification. Yamahas are made out of the same formula that the millitary used for bullet casings foor the 223 in vietnam, and that is that. Yes, yamaha does keep their formula quiet. other than letting it slip probably to clinicians or dealers or whoever that they use the same thing as those casings. Now tell me, where can I find the EXACT formula that the manufacturers made thos casings up. Federal.com? winchester.com?

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        21. by johnsonfromwisconsin
          (767 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That was a simplification. Yamahas are made out of the same formula that the millitary used for bullet casings foor the 223 in vietnam, and that is that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless you can: 1) Find information from somewhere authoritive about the brass Yamaha uses. 2) Show how that is relavent towards you're argument against Yamaha quality 'That' most certainly isn't 'That'. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now tell me, where can I find the EXACT formula that the manufacturers made thos casings up. Federal.com? winchester.com? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Google? I wouldn't know, I have never asserted anything about the makeup of shell casings.

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        22. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago


        23. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago


        24. by sax_maniac
          (984 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          You're awesome, chia dude!

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        25. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          You are fucking dumb. Im not running an anti yamaha argument here. I posted that there is more than just zinc and copper in brass, both of which conduct electricity. many manufacturers have a gold plated option. All manufacturerts plate their gold plated saxes in silver before gold, gold which will bond to all sorts of stuff, won't bond to the surface of a sax very well. It is obvious that there are other elements in the brass if gold won't stick properly. Chis, if you are going to show us something, show us something definitive, because that most certainly is NOT.

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        26. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Though that does look right, with LEAD, copper, iron and zinc.

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        27. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          "Chis, if you are going to show us something, show us something definitive, because that most certainly is NOT." You haven't shown us ANYTHING other than you're outspoken opinon. Give us some proof then start talking shit.

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        28. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          "All manufacturerts plate their gold plated saxes in silver before gold, gold which will bond to all sorts of stuff, won't bond to the surface of a sax very well. It is obvious that there are other elements in the brass if gold won't stick properly." give us some proof in the forms of books, documents, or websites. then we can talk about what "All manufacturerts" do.

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        29. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          ALSO 70/30 brass is VERY common, it's kinda easy to work with, not too hard but not too soft, and it's cheap. I would say that most crafts and things you see made of brass are made out of that alloy.

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        30. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          this from my art metals teacher who has all of 25-30 years experence in gold/silver work. Andrew, Either gold or silver can be plated over brass, bronze or copper. Gold plating is a process that transfers dissolved gold through a plating solution to the piece being plated by means of electrical current. Plating solutions vary in content depending on the metal being plated. If a piece is already brass plated, you would have to determine what the base metal is to properly know how to prepare the piece for plating. The library should have several books on plating. If you don’t find a resource, I have a book that has a chapter in about plating. Hope this helps.

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        31. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          jesus christ havent we gone over this already?

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        32. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          "jesus christ havent we gone over this already?" no, because I haven't really checked into this and researched it yet. all we have "gone over" is your opinon, and no sources to back it up.

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        33. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Ummm...Saxman, you can't get lead poisoning from touching lead, but eating after you've touched it or anything close to that will get you lead poisoning. So I find it kind of hard to believe that, becuase unless everyone that uses Yamahas washes their hands after they play, Yamaha would have their asses sued off by now.

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        34. by sax_maniac
          (984 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          As long as this has become a metallurgy discussion - is it necessarily true that just because it has lead in it that there is "free lead" which can be absorbed through the skin? I mean, if lead was in all brass to some minor extent, what are we supposed to do? Switch to clarinet? Maybe then I'd be bored enough with my music hobby to go back to meticulously caring for my lawn with lots of chemical fertilizers and weed-killers. The eggs thing took off - what do you guys thing about Scotts vs. Vigoro? I mean, the Scotts is moisture released and the Vigoro is temperature released, so there's your pros and cons. The Scotts (2 plus Halts) is great for when you are planning a weekend party. Spread the stuff on Tuesday, and by Saturday, you're rockin' green! The Vigoro is a more steady release, however. More of a "West Coast" green than an "East Coast" green.

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        35. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Wow.

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        36. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Golfer, lead is absolutely everywhere. The amounts in a sax i can't imagine being enough to poison you, if you took the whole lot at once, let alone just what came off on your hand, which wouldn't happen because there is some sort of surface guard over it, and even if there isn't, I don't think the lead would come off on your hands anyway. Even touching something PURE lead then eating without washig your hands wouldn't give you lead poisoning unless you are some sort of serious candy ass. I handled PURE lead weights for the last 4 days on a fishing trip, big ones, 4 pound weights the whole day that required the entire surface of your hand to touch it on one day, then the rest of the trip dealt with 2 pound weights mostly. I also ate on the boat for pretty much the whole day in between times I was pulling up fish. The fish when at the surface needed to be released, dictating that the lead must be held to keep it smacking the side of the boat. after handling the lead again I would return to eating. Beethoven died of lead poisoning - he was in his thrities I beleived - it took that long for the contaminated water to get him. Have you ever breathed? just curious, because there are certian amounts of lead in the air. Have you ever been walking and you see a piston powered plane fly over head? And then you stayed in the general area for a bit? well then you got a little more lead as av gas has certain amounts of lead in it - iodine is rediculously expensive to use. There is stuff everywhere that is poisonous, but we still get exposed ot it, it doesn't mean you are going to die. Have you ever brushed your teeth? most tooth pastes contain certain amounts of arsenic in them - I beleive as an mild abrasive - a finer grit than the diatoms for a higher lustre.

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        37. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          read this www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10642 "You can also absorb lead through your digestive system if lead gets into your mouth and is swallowed. If you handle food, cigarettes, chewing tobacco, or make-up which have lead on them or handle them with hands contaminated with lead, this will contribute to ingestion." I think these guys know what they are talking about... Also saxman you are right, lead can't be absorbed though the skin, but it can get on food and cause problems. No your fishing trip most likely didn't do any damage. But if someone plays a sax that has exposed lead everyday for a while, adjusts their reed, eats or smokes, well the chances are greatly increased. I can google for more info if you want, it's not that hard. You should give it a try sometime.=)

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        38. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          Osha doesn't know shit. They are the single most corrupt government agency that I can think of. Sure, all of that does lead to ingestion, but it takes a considerable amount to get poisoned from it - paul desmond smoked his whole life pretty much...yet he died of lung cancer...

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        39. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          "paul desmond smoked his whole life pretty much...yet he died of lung cancer..." Oh man, there's a shocker!!! He smoked, and died of lung cancer? Get out.... What point does that prove? Also, Osha is the single most corrupt governement agency you can think of? Are there any other corrupt ones you can think of? Ones that would be less corrupt but still corrupt? If so, feel free to share. That's just not saying much.

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        40. by sax_maniac
          (984 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          MARK!!! Please kill this thread! Why don't you two email each other rather than post this on the board? At least someone might have benefitted someday from my comments related to fertilizer. Speaking of fertilizer... SaxMan - you are THE broadcast spreader of the entire SaxQuest discussion board. I only wish I could spread your posts on my lawn to shape things up a bit more. FYI - the Weekly World News is full of lies and unsubstantiated stories, yet is one of the highest circulating newspapers in the world. Does that make it a good read?

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        41. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: Bent necks

          golfer, there is lead in cigarettes just like chia just posted - he died of lung cancer, meaning that he DID NOT die of lead poisoning - lead is not as big an issue as osha makes it out to be. I can think of a few less corrupt, but for the most part, they try and corrupt for the good of the people, because the people don't know what is best for them. Maniac, the wwn is a bunch of garbage, and it is a terrible read.

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