Saxophone Forum


by SATBSaxRH
(11 posts)
10 years ago

Comment about the Marcel Mule Vibrato from the "Who is your favorite classical sax player?" Forum

First off, Marcel Mule did not have a jazz vibrato. I have no idea who thought that. Where is everyone getting this information? Also, Marcel Mule did not model his vibrato after "violin" vibrato or "viola" vibrato or whatever. Honestly now, this is "Legit Saxophone," put some "Legit" information in this forum. Marcel Mule's vibrato sounds like the types of vibrato I have re-mentioned earlier because of the recording technology present during his time. That is why is sounds very fast and narrow. I think you should trust me on this one, my former teacher was a pupil of his at the Paris Conservatory. Marcel Mule probably had the most controlled vibrato of any saxophonist during his time.

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  1. by SaxMan
    (559 posts)

    10 years ago

    jesus christ are you stupid or something? have you EVER heard mule? Have you ever listened to concertino da camera? mules vibrato is fast and relatively wide. Not fast and narrow. The recording equipment is surprisingly similair to todays recording tech. Some studios still record in tape - like they did in the 50's. The only signifficant change are new microphones. And what does the equipment have to do with his vibrato? if you change the fidelity, you will get the same range, just at a different pitch and speed. Mule is an enigma - very little information is availiable on him. The greatest source I have found yet was on an interview. he started jazz saxophone, as we knew it until about the 1960's. (Some in the 70's remained, but less and less - less than in the 60's.) Tell us, how old is your former teacher?

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    1. by SATBSaxRH
      (11 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re:

      Again, "SaxMan," its obvious you are a high schooler, my former teacher from many years ago was George Etheridge, the only American to go past qualification rounds in the Paris Conserv. Sax. Comp., and he was a pupil of Marcel Mule. Now about this comment "jesus christ are you stupid or something," you need to go to college and study saxophone before you can say something like that, i've said a different message something similiar. Also, you know very little about Marcel Mule besides what you find on the internet and from your high school band friends, and you do not know anyone has learned saxophone from marcel mule or heard him live. And obviously you know nothing about recording equipment. You obviously do not know about recording technology advancements that have occured in the past 50 years. The former director of one of my alma mater ensembles, Frederick Fennell helped pioneer new recording systems for band recordings, and before that, the recordings were like Marcel Mule's. This is the problem with high schoolers like you, you are not advanced enough, you have relatively flawed knowledge on the saxophone, because you create your own deviations of known facts, and because you are unjustifyingly arrogant. You need to study your facts before you can start saying things like you have said in your message.

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      1. by George Etheridge
        (2 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: who are you?

        Please let me know your name-GE

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        1. by Rob Nordan
          (1 post)

          10 years ago

          Re: who are you?

          I am looking for a way to contact George Etheridge. My name is Rob Nordan. I was in the University of Maryland Band the semester that you filled for John Wakefield, around 1975. You referred to me as "Nordan" and sometimes "smart ___". I play(ed) trumpet and am now a Director of a Music School and getting ready to start a Music Institutute. How may I contact you? I would like to talk to you in person sometime. Thanks, Rob Nordan

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      2. by Azsax
        (47 posts)

        7 years ago

        Re:

        I must dispute your claim that a Mr. Etheridge was the only American to go past qualification rounds, unless of course you are speaking of years prior to 1956. Most everyone knows that Fred Hemke was the first American to win the Premiere Prix de Saxophone in 1956.

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      3. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re:

        you never told us his age. You obviously don't know anything about what I am talking about, otherwise you would have blatantly understood what I meant about the recording equipment. God dang, we have another max@traxxion here.

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        1. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re:

          SATBsax, you're calling Saxman unjustifyably arrogant, and even if he is, you're being just as arrogant, if not more. When you say unjustifyably arrogant, you make it seem as though there is justification for you being he jackass that you are. If you have study with the people you say you have, and have the knowledge you say you have, why do you feel the need to bitch and argue with a highschool student? Take a pill.

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      4. by tickneither
        (4 posts)

        10 years ago

        Hey SATB, I am going to skip the argument about who here is wiser on this discussion and go right to the practical stuff. I am interested in what you have to say about the theory on Mule's vibrato. I always felt like it was a tool of expression that he chose to use in a style which may have been most appropriate for the times. I don't really buy into the "jazz vib." theory, because I don't even think that makes a whole lot of sense if you look at the history of the sax and Mule in general. Tell me more about your recording theory, as I don't know quite what you are alluding to. Also, do you feel the Mule vib. is still alive in the French school of thought, or has that vib. had its day?

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        1. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re:

          The Vibrato is a tool of expression. The jazz vibrato thing is NOT a theory, its the truth. I will run by you a very simplified history of mule Mule learns sax form his father at young age Mule surpasses father. Mule takes lessons form someone else mule starts doing jazz gigs mule starts doing classical gigs, first without vibrato, which was the norm of the time - )the sax style was from the clarinet style back then.) until he is instructed to play tres expressif on some song at a legitimate venue and palys it w/out vibrato. The conductor says, "no, no, no!" play like I heard you at the opera commique. So he does, and classical sax vibrato begins, which was the same vibrato used in his jazz stuff. Second of all, I don't see what mules history has to do with his vibrato. third of all, his recording theory is absolutely idiotic, if you listen to a mule recording, the vibrato is fairly wide, not narrow. fourth of all, there is no mule style vibrato. There is the french vibrato, the german vibrato, basically. A few others that change a little, but are fairly close to those 2. Each player has his own style of vibrato, but they fit into a category of vibrato - i use the proper, french vibrato. Today, vibratos are more and more commonly of the german style do to the degredation of art. claude delangle, the prof at the conservatory, uses a french vibrato, but it is MUCH narrower.

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          1. by tickneither
            (4 posts)

            10 years ago

            Re:

            Lame response "saxman". You seem like you have some good info to share, however you choose to infuse it with your personal B.S. and ridiculous opinions about what is right and wrong in music/sax. People would be more apt to listen to what you had to say if you weren't such an arogant human being. I can only (thankfully) imagine what your "proper" style of peformance of this sadly "degredated" genera must be like. No thanks.

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          2. by Bibimbop
            (53 posts)

            10 years ago

            Re:

            Here's the flaw I see in your theory about Mule and jazz. You quoted "play like I heard in the opera comique" and you are equating opera comique to jazz. Opera Comique is not jazz at all. Opera comiques were satires on french culture. For instance, Bizet's "Carmen" is an Opera Comique. I think Carmen is far from jazz. Also, most information on Mule's style of playing comes from 2 sources; the students he had (i.e. Rousseau, Hemke, Londeix) and the recordings he did. I find it hard to believe that Mule would record differently than he played or taught (especially if it's someone who doesn't like recording). Also, Claude Delangle's concept of vibrato is far from Mule's concept. Listen to "A Saxophone for a Lady", Delangle barely uses vibrato at all. While Mule would put vibrato in anywhere he could put it, Delangle uses different it sparingly. The width isn't nearly as important as where they uses to achieve different nuances. This DVD you spoke of earlier of the story on Mule... send a link of where it can be purchased because I haven't seen it anywhere

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            1. by SaxMan
              (559 posts)

              10 years ago

              Re:

              he first did jazz, then he did l'opera commique with vibrato. The DVD cant be found in stores, it is only availiable at the legendary saxophonist colection webstie @ - well the website is locked right now, but I will give you the guys email. bryankendallm@hotmail.com Ask for the mule dvd.

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            2. by jazzax
              (30 posts)

              10 years ago

              Re:

              Back to the first post, that's interesting that Mule didn't model his vibrato from the violin. I know way back when I was studying classical sax in college, my teacher suggested I listen to violinists (Perlman, Heifitz) to develop vibrato which he compared to a wave that goes above and below the primary pitch. Often, vibrato is achieved by moving the jaw down and therefore only falls below and matches the primary pitch. He thought that was jazz vibrato (he was a classical saxophonist who didn't like jazz sax). I'm a jazz saxophonist, but I like classical sax, especially the very little bit of Mule I've heard. It does seem like an intense vibrato and definitely seems to have infuenced many classical players.

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            3. by George Etheridge
              (2 posts)

              10 years ago

              Re:Marcel Mule vibrato

              I am most interested in the discussion over Marcel Mules vibrato.Since I did study with him at the Conservatoire in Paris(no,I am not dead yet!) I have a little more perspective on the subject. It is my understanding that M.Mule studied all the great singers of the day and he concluded that all used vibrato at app.300 undulations per minute.The formula was to find your metronome speed,find a number that would multiply it to reach app. 300 undulations, and voila! He was very insistent on the correct number of undulations and would "clock" them with his pocket metronome in my lessons. As to the origins of his vibrato, I know that he heard many of the jazz players of the day, and was interested in adopting vibrato to his needs. The story is that he used vibrato in a performance at one of the theaters and a colleague of his from the Garde Republicaine band suggested he use it in the band as well.He gradually introduced it,at the pleasure of the conductor. In listening to M.M. play in my lessons, the sound was somewhat different than the recordings.The sound was incredibly beautiful and the vibrato not as pronounced as on the recordings. As to the comment about the vibrato being on the bottom side of the pitch-if the embouchure is set in a certain way, it is possible to vibrato ABOVE the pitch-I teach and play this way, bwecause I believe it gives the sound a more singing quality- Also, with this flxibility, you have the option of putting the vibrato anywhere you want it,allowing for more expressive playing.

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            4. by saxhack
              (1 post)

              7 years ago

              Re:Marcel Mule vibrato

              George Etheridge is a genius not only in the field of saxophone, but also in all aspects of music. You will not find a more musical artist anywhere. Sound is a very subjective subject, especially when trying to decide best tones, best vibratos, etc. There are so many personal tastes and, as many things in life, a person's own history will influence those tastes. I am a disciple of George Etheridge and as such am biased to his thinking and his style of playing. I have taught band for 20 years and always refer my saxophone players to the so called 'mule' style of playing.

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            5. by kelsey
              (823 posts)

              7 years ago

              Re:Marcel Mule vibrato

              I have two favorite classical sax players. Boots Randolph and Saxman.........Kelsey
              Barry Kelsey

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