Saxophone Forum


by Goldref18
(145 posts)
19 years ago

Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

Ok so everyone knows of the vintage selmer dominance that exists in the SBAs and the Mark VIs. However, i think that what is not being said enough about is how good the Mark VIIs are. A lot of people dismiss them as just an inferior attempt to make more money, however, they really do play amazingly. I tried an alto today, and being in between altos, for the money i really am considering it. I think that people don't give them enough credit because as far as i can tell they sound extremely good and play with ease and great intonation/response. (The only thing is the low note cluster is really strange, but still works well enough in the end) Anyone else feel this way?

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  1. by johnsonfromwisconsin
    (767 posts)

    19 years ago

    Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

    I've tried one VII tenor in my life, and I thought it was pretty good, actually. However, I think the biggest bargin/best horn ration exists in the Buescher brand. Truetones are bargin-priced, sometimes less than student horns and I have an earlier post-selmer 400 that's quite a horn itself.

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    1. by Goldref18
      (145 posts)

      19 years ago

      Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

      Couldn't agree with you more. My Soprano is a Buescher True-Tone Soprano that i got for an absolute steal. I was really ready to spend 4 times what i paid and that was without even negotiating. Bueschers, defying all odds, are really affordable even though they are no longer being made.

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    2. by connsaxman_jim
      (2336 posts)

      19 years ago

      Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

      ABSOLUTELY!!! Buescher saxes never got the recognition they deserve. The Truetones, Aristocrats and 400's are all very good saxes, and you can often find them CHEAP! If you're looking for a nice 10M or a Mk. VI but can't afford one, check out a Buescher.

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      1. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        19 years ago

        Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

        well in the 20's and 30's the buescher altos were the chosen altos

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        1. by saxismyaxe
          (575 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

          Martin Committee's are tremendiously undervalued/underrated. These horns have fantastic tone and power, and very comfortable and fast keywork. They are well built, solid and beautifully designed horns.

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        2. by barelytone
          (4 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

          I own a pre-Selmer 400 tenor and agree about Bueschers. If you are looking more for that "French sound", look for a Pierret, AKA Olds Parisian Ambassador. You will play C-Melody prices for these, get a great sound, and keywork as good or better than 10m.

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      2. by mikegin
        (2 posts)

        19 years ago

        Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

        Maybe the MkVII altos are OK, but I once bought a brand-new MKVII tenor (at a bargain price in Helsinki!) and it was a pig - poor intonation and clumsy keywork. I ditched it asap. I currently have 2 MkVI tenors, but my favourite horn is a King Super 20.
        Mike Gingold

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        1. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

          I wouldn't say that Mk VII's are under-rated. They're just not AS over-rated as the Mk VI's and some of the other Selmers!

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      3. by TeutonicKnights
        (3 posts)

        19 years ago

        Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

        In reply to the question title.We would say currently in the 21st century the most underated Saxophones are without doubt Vintage Conn. Followed close behind are Martin.Because of this it keeps the price down which is great.The reason this happons is that often players think they are moving up when they go onto vintage super20 or Selmer or Yanis or Yamahas. They havent played long enough to understand. But check out any player with experience and they will confirm, that vintage conn saxophones are great and very underated. ( The Bergonz lives)

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      4. by saxyguy
        (4 posts)

        19 years ago

        Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

        I think Martin Committee II's are the best horns America ever made. Check out the photo of Glen Miller and his sax player promoting the Committee II alto in an old photo if you can find it!

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        1. by saxismyaxe
          (575 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

          Steve Goodson's SAXGOURMET website has this ad, it can be found under the archived "Vintage Sax Ads" section.

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          1. by barelytone
            (4 posts)

            19 years ago

            Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

            oh, the Olds Ambassador/Pierret has very good low key action, and since part of your question involves cost. how about this; one just sold on Ebay for $250, needing not much. Got an older B&S tenot for $399, needing zero work. What do playable Martins cost???

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            1. by barelytone
              (4 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              PS=since when are Martins underrated????????

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            2. by saxy1
              (6 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Wow. This thread started out as Mark VII praising, and ended up as a Buescher/Martin thread. I personally would like to defend the Mark VII. I have a tenor which I purchased new in 1975, and although I had ordered a MK VI from the dealer in Toronto, he told me that they were no longer available, and that this MK VII was the next generation of Selmers. I did find that the Bb cluster was a little awkward at first, and the low C could be a wee bit smaller, but I never had a serious complaint about this horn. Overall, I found that this horn always played well, with no major intonation problems. I love the sound of this horn, and I believe that it is every bit as flexible as the Mk VI that I never got. And yes I played plenty of them...my high school had nothing but Mk VIs for the senior players-I believe the school had 8 altogether. It still plays great today, in spite of the fact that I don't move as quickly as I used to. I guess what I'm getting around to is that the Mark VII probably is the most underrated horn out there, with very little in the way of praise, and a whole lot on the side of criticism. For those people who tried them new in the seventies and walked away because they weren't Mark VI horns, I feel sorry for your loss. You might just have missed the right horn for you. I know that if I hadn't been shipped this horn instead of a VI, I certainly wouldn't have been able to stick up for this fine instrument. Cut those VIIs some slack, and try one out. As horns go, they're certainly superior to most new offerings. Anyway, it's just my opinion, right?

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            3. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Hey a mark VII lover ,,,saxy1 ,,, great stuff!!!! I have owned and played many a sax from cigar cutter to a few markVIs to SA80s to Series IIs and I have tried some series IIIs but a VII is unique . You are not the only one . Let me tell you about a discussion with Londeix . The last time he came to Montreal for masterclasses I spoke with him on this particular subject. Unhappy with my Series II I asked him if he could pick out a horn for me the next time he was at Selmer Paris ( I studied with one of his prize students and I had good connections here). I had tried some of his horn picks ( for his students) and they are amazing. I also told him that I always preferred my VII to any horn I had ever tried. He responded this way: "All Selmers saxes from BAs to SBA, to VI, to SA80 to Ser II are all, in his words "beautiful mares". The MarkVII is more of a "thorough-bred stallion" wild temperamental and difficult to tame, but when you can tame and harness it,,,, nothing comes close. Anyway I still love, own, and play MarkVIIs even though I try just about everything . One more thing of interest ,,you have to know what you are doing when you oick a horn. All the horns he picked for his students were never liked at the beginning. This was especially true of the VIIs, they showed their potential after six months or so !!!! My teacher's horn ( 1977 ) took one year to develop and lose its original resistance ,,I have tried to purchase it on many occasions no dice!!!! He plays classical to jazz and it works on everything. The horn slices through any section. By the way I tell everybody that VIIs are not a good horn and to stay away!!! This keeps the price down and me happy,, try to do the same.

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            4. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Hey i almost forgot !!! Did you ever see the first VIIs with the stylized bell keyguard in the shape of two "7" one above the other??? i am trying to get one one these keyguards for my alto.

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            5. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              "wild temperamental and difficult to tame, but when you can tame and harness it,,,, nothing comes close" Sounds like a 10M. Except for the "nothing comes close" part...

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            6. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              King Clevelands are the most under-rated. The Super 20's (in my opinion - needlessly) distract everyone from the Clevelands/615's - which don't sonically "wash out" like the silver necked 20's. The modern action on the later 20's is a vast improvement, though, and a Silversonic is probably the most beautiful saxophone ever made.

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            7. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              King Clevelands and 615's are good horns, but considered more of a student-intermediate model. The Zephyrs are really nice horns. I have a Zephyr II baritone sax that I have been really impressed with. I think some of best beginner-intermediate horns are the Conn Directors model saxophones built in Elkhart Indiana between 1955-1968. The later horns made in Nogales and Mexico were not nearly as good. My first alto was a 1963 Conn 14M Director's model. It played so easy, and sounded pretty good too. Sure it's no 6M, but a nice horn. The older 16M tenors were great horns also. If you shop around, you can often find these horns really cheap! JUST WATCH THE SERIAL NUMBERS!!! Anything with a serial number prefix of N or after, I wouldn't pay too much for it! Jim

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            8. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Man!!! What is it with US sax players ??? King,Conn, Martin, Beusher. Cannonball, Zephyrs, Couf, worldwide nobody wants these horns. In Montreal they won't give you the time of day for these things. Come here and buy them or I can look out for these things for you. Why are you guys bent on driving Model Ts of the sax world?

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            9. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Golly, I don't know - 'cause they sound good? I dunno - blame it on Lee Greenwood. Please keep me in the loop if you see any Coufs in the pawn shop dumpsters.

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            10. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              they sound good!!!! is the rest of the world deaf? What sax quartet is sporting Kings? What clarinet ensemble is looking for 1920 woodwinds? The musicians of those eras were dying for better horns and here we are thinking we have discovered the pot at the end of the rainbow. Anyway if you want I will look out for a Couf no joke!!!!! and while I'm at it I might also find a sagging breasted, giggily thighed 80 yr old to boot. Who knows- Golly Jim Bob she might even sound better than Zeta Jones.

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            11. by paulwl
              (5 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              selmer 4evr wrote on 4/29/2005: >> they sound good!!!! is the rest of the world deaf? > What sax quartet is sporting Kings? > What clarinet ensemble is looking for 1920 woodwinds? > The musicians of those eras were dying for better horns and here we are thinking we have discovered the pot at the end of the rainbow. > and while I'm at it I might also find a sagging breasted, giggily thighed 80 yr old to boot. Who knows- Golly Jim Bob she might even sound better than Zeta Jones.

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            12. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              You said : Lauren Bacall is 81 and she DOES sound pretty hot. Look at all the voice over gigs she's getting. IS SHE HOT!!!!!!!!!maybe to some!!!!! When I said sound better I meant SOUND as a mistress if a sax is for playing then a Woman is for ...... I suppose that these vintage afficionados actually look for 80 year olds to (you know what with)

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            13. by johnsonfromwisconsin
              (767 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Oooh! Keep an eye out for Buffets and Dolnets for me too! :)

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            14. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              selmer_4ever; your name says it all! "Man!!! What is it with US sax players ??? King,Conn, Martin, Beusher. Cannonball, Zephyrs, Couf, worldwide nobody wants these horns. In Montreal they won't give you the time of day for these things. Come here and buy them or I can look out for these things for you. Why are you guys bent on driving Model Ts of the sax world?" Spoken like a true Selmer snob, who has probably had little or no experience with vintage American horns! I just traded a brand new Selmer Series III Soprano for a 1949 Buescher 400 Top Hat & Cane tenor! I DEFINATELY think I got the better deal! I HAVE a 1952 Selmer SBA alto and a 1954 Mark VI tenor. The alto, I play occasionally, The tenor sits in the closet and collects dust. My Conn and Buescher get the most use!

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            15. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              """I DEFINATELY think I got the better deal! """" Selmer snob no I respect anyone preferring a Yam or a Yani !!! I started on a Martin ,,would I go back No Way!!!!!as long as there are guys willing to pay big bucks for outdated stuff you might have gotten a good deal but when the bottom drops out watch out !!!! Would you be interested in a 1955 round screen TV I also have a hulla-hoop for sale ,,,, you drive Model T across the US I will do it in a BMW or a Mercedes???

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            16. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Some of the really old horns are neat wall pieces and collectables, but as for playability, they're a little too antique. This being some of the horns of the "teens" and early 20's. The horns that I am referring to primarily are those made in the late 30's, 40's and 50's. Sure, the model T's are a little too antique, but would I cruise across the US in a 1955 Chevy Bel Air? YOU BET I WOULD, or a '49 Mercury, or a 1932 Ford, 1939 Buick, a 1957 Corvette or a 1956 Thunderbird? I can't think of a more nostalgic or fun way to travel. in fact, that's my dream; to travel the famous Route 66 from Chicago to LA and stop at every drive thru burger place along the way! You can travel in your BMW or Mercedes with your air conditioning and CD player playing Kenny G. I'll pass you by in my 1957 Bel Air Convertable with the top down and the radio tuned to the local oldies station drinking a Coca Cola and flipping you the finger!

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            17. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              This has been fun but you got the wrong road you see we are on the Autobahn doing 130 mph or on an English winding backroad feeling the G forces do you still want to do it in a 55 Bel Aire ?Might you be interested in some "8 tracks "

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            18. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Oh I forgot !!!! you could not think of a more fun way ....for how long?? nostalgia is a bummer it is very shortlived,,, you too would prefer Radial Tires,, CD players,, Honda's Toyota's or a recent US car. My point is not one of brands it is one of outdated vs modern. If these horns were ssssoooo gooooddddd they would have never gone belly-up but they did because they refused to change and progress.

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            19. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Oh I forgot !!!! you could not think of a more fun way ....for how long?? nostalgia is a bummer it is very shortlived,,, you too would prefer Radial Tires,, CD players,, Honda's Toyota's or a recent US car. My point is not one of brands it is one of outdated vs modern. If these horns were ssssoooo gooooddddd they would have never gone belly-up but they did because they refused to change and progress.

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            20. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              " If these horns were ssssoooo gooooddddd they would have never gone belly-up but they did because they refused to change and progress" If Selmer horns are so good and modern is better, then why is it that EVERY horn they produce they try to market it as "THE NEW MARK VI?" Why did Conn, King, Buescher and Martin go out of business? Well, lets see. Conn and Buescher both supported Selmer in their beginning her in America only to be STABBED IN THE BACK a few years later. In the case of Conn, the CEO retired, the grandson later took over, and made some not-so-good business decisions. Due to lack of profitablity and the threar of a corperate takeover, the company was sold to MacMillan; a publishing company who knew NOTHING about saxophones; and took a chance that with the reputation of Conn horns, they could produce a lesser horn with cheap Mexican labor and be proffitable. Well we know, the saxophone is a very complex instrument! The saxophone market had declined. Instead of listening to bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra, Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington, or players like Charlie Parker or Paul Desmond, people were listening to Elvis, Buddy Holly, and The Beatles, and everyone wanted GUITARS! Selmer survived purely on GREED and by stabbing all the other companies who helped them get started in the back! I have NO RESPECT for Selmer whatsoever as a company, and as for their product? VERY OVER-RATED in my opinion!

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            21. by barimachine
              (323 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              you wouldnt "feel the g forces" at a constant 130 mph their based on acceleration or breaking terminal velocity

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            22. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Here's another comparison for you selmer_4ever. A race car driver doesn't need all the comforts of a BMW or a Mercedes to drive! Give them 4 good tires, a full tank of gas, and a V8 engine with some horsepower, and they'll push it to the limit! A good saxophone player can take one of those old antique American horns you refer to as a Model T and make her sing sweeter than 2 Canaries in love!

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            23. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Would I drive a 1932 Ford on the Autobahn doing 130 MPH? SURE!!! With the right set up! Give me a tubular steel frame with more modern suspension, Willwood disc brakes, a B&M tranny, Mustang rear axel and a good strong V8! It all depends on what road you're traveling. But there you have it! With the proper set-up, you can even drive a 32 Ford on the Autobahn!

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            24. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Racing ?????? is there a more technically advanced car as a racing car?????? Are discs brakes better than drum ??? Has aerodynamics come a long way???? Oh you don't mean """pedal to the metal""" you mean racing slipper to the Graphite ,,,,while all the electronics in the steering wheel cluster tell you all about the engine management system .... Give up whever you turn the future always challenges us ...let's take it head on it might be a good ride!!!!

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            25. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              You forgot one thing nylon belted whitewall tires and no you don't get a modern suspension You car has leafs front and back and a solid axle at both ends with a crank to boot. as for transmission how about an automatic two speed PowerGlide

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            26. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Well you obviously have no appreciation for vintage horns or classic horns, and probably no experience with either, because if you did, you might have a better understanding. Need I remind you that the point of the conversation is SAXOPHONES!!! Not race cars or the autobahn, or white wall tires! What I meant by the comment about racing was that a good sax player doesn't need a new Selmer to play good! He can take an old Conn, Buescher or King with half the lacquer worn off and raise the roof! My 10M screams! I think I have made my point, and I really don't see any need to drag this on any further. As for taking it head on..... I wouldn't go head on with a 1957 Bel Air if you're in a BMW or a Mercedes, because that vintage American metal will rip through your Beemer like tin foil!

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            27. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Well you obviously have no appreciation for vintage horns or classic CARS is what I meant.

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            28. by definition
              (963 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I must agree with Jim, Id be the one behind him in my 67 Mustang GT Fastback, and there would be no way your benz is keepin up with my 455 big block V8... Back on the horns though, Jim is spot on about Selmer, they arealways just out to try and make a quick buck any way they can. If you study the VIs, you'll see how they were different as time progressed, and you can generally find 4 different models of horns that say Mark VI, they tried to find a way to market a crappier horn for a larger profit on them. Another one of your arguments was intonation being better, but thats a moot agruement that doesnt make sense, wvery alto, tenor, bari, etc has the same intonation tendencies as you go through the registers. and any idiot with an ear can get any horn to play in tune as it should.

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            29. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I'm somewhat "agnostic" when it comes to saxophone brands. On principle, I'm totally against the dumping of Chinese/Taiwan imports - no matter how good they are. If it kicks the majors like Selmer into gear to make sure their instruments stand out in terms of quality or performance, that's one thing. Sadly, the majors' response due to the modern disposable instrument market is "well, I guess we'll make horns over there, too." Obviously, it's a decision based more on the bottom line than it is on reputation. But no business stays in business based on pride, alone. Aside from that soapbox, I sold off my Selmer Series III after getting my hands on a great playing Yamaha YAS-23. Tried the Ref and could have cared less. It played like a III with less ergonomic keywork. Sure, Selmer's proline keywork is some of the best out there, but quite frankly - as I've got over 20 years on my favorite mouthpiece - I can tweak just about any horn to sound decent when I play it. Couldn't justify having $3500 in the case when I could play just as well with $500 in there. So I'm currently playing a Yani/Vito sop, a YAS-23, and a Yani (unbranded stencil) bari - which replaced an awesome 12M, but modern professional keywork and the low A nudged Humpty Dumpty off the wall. And I'm successfully turning an old Yani stencil alto into a great player. I've gone through the gamut on tenors - SBA's, 10M's, Kings, (no Japanese models, though), and have settled on an old Keilwerth. There is great pleasure in tuning an old horn into a player. Especially old, forgotten, American vintage horns that get no respect. I guess I'm a sort of saxophone social worker - taking in the poor and downtrodden and helping them pull their lives together and sending them off to good, loving homes. But seriously - anyone helping me get into Coufs at a decent price will get a healthy finder's fee.

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            30. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Great car there Definition! That's a Shelby GT500 Mustang isn't it? You've got a few more ponies than my 283, but don't the fuzzy dice hanging from my rear view mirror look cool? Tail fins baby!

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            31. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              You guys are a joke !!! Stencils,, Yam 23 ,,, Buescher,,,Vitos and so on,,,,,,,i guess The L A Sax Quartet ,,, Rousseau ,,,,Hemke ,,,,and other such americans are all wrong. Tell me something what decent American Music School would let you pass final exams with playing a Conn,,King,,Martin and such while attending??? . Maybe one of you would like to audition for the Philadelphia Symphony and Riccardo Muti to play the Bolero or L'Arlesienne with a Zephyr,,,,oh don't forget the case of beer,,,, but don't burp into the sax it will raise its value Please spare me the laughs.

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            32. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              "Tell me something what decent American Music School would let you pass final exams with playing a Conn,,King,,Martin and such while attending??? . Maybe one of you would like to audition for the Philadelphia Symphony and Riccardo Muti to play the Bolero or L'Arlesienne" I played my final exam on stage with Buddy Guy at Chicago's House of Blues! And then I passed my refresher course in swing/jazz on stage with the Brian Setzer orchestra! As for the places you mentioned; I could care less about them! Obviously, you prefer classical music. I have no interest in classical music whatsoever. I wouldn't say it's not good music, but I find it boring. I love the complexity and nostalgia of jazz, swing and bopthe raw emotion and dynamics of blues soul and funk! My old Conn 10M, Betty is a bold, brassy old sax with plenty of attitude! She wants to be heard, and believe me, she has plenty to say!

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            33. by saxismyaxe
              (575 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Selmer 4evr; The justification is in the final results. The fact is, the probity of world class saxophone playing and musical expression on that instrument, as well as it's world wide acceptance, was pioneered and carried forth for over a century by AMERICAN artists, performing for a good percentage of that time on AMERICAN horns. These horns seemed to do more than just o.k. with Bean, Bird, Prez, Dexter, Coltrane, Cannonball et. al. If you are referring to Classical horn players only, The Buescher True Tone seemed to do just fine for Sigurd Rascher! How do you and your Selmer stack up against these players, pray tell? Since we are talking results here, and you seem hell bent on denigrating Americans along with our horns, lets face the facts here: I can't seem to recall the last time I heard a saxophonist from Montreal, stellar, mediocre, or worth a plug nickel, playing a Selmer, Conn, Zeus, or Zaphoon for that matter! For the record, I do own a SBA, 54*** MkVI, and have owned a Selmer Series II, III and Ref 36. in addition to many American, French, and German vintage horns. 38 total. I like them all. We get it, you love Selmer.............now move on with the conversation.

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            34. by definition
              (963 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              American Music school that lets you grad on those horns? Not so hard, I have a cousin in juliard and while his main axe is the french horn, hes playing great on my 10M, and is complimented on his sound constantly. I graduated from The Ohio State University, one of the best music programs and most competitive in the midwest, and my horns at the time were: King super 20 silversonic tenor, zephyr alto, "the martin" alto, buescher true tone curved sop, a Conn 12M bari, and a yani soprano. I sat first chair in every ensemble I played in, wether it be legit music or Jazz. I played their Selmer bari once, and a Mark VI they have, but they were just weak, with no power

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            35. by tsaxy11
              (1 post)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Actually, I just did my juries with a Buescher alto and the professors were blown away by my sound. I'm a sax major at the University of Northern Colorado, which is one of the best music schools in the nation. We just won Downbeat Magazine's award for best college big band...again. I would like to ask you if you have actually tried a Buescher? Mine is a mid-30's True Tone. I have played Selmers, Yamahas, and many other saxes, and the Buescher definitely stands up to it. It has a rich, mellow sound and great intonation. Maybe you would know that if you had tried. And to agree with others in this discussion, a great sax player doesn't need the most expensive horn to sound great. It's technique that counts.

              Reply To Post


            36. by Roccosm
              (113 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              relax My friend , the cream always come to the top when your the best they all come after you , the Mark 6 does not need our rallying to the point of vilonce just sit back and hear the music . the heavy hitter's know what to play the other's sell out for endorsement money's .. the cream alway's come's to the top my Man.

              Reply To Post


            37. by definition
              (963 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              haha the GT 500 that this baby started with had a Boss 305 V8, which is i the shed out back now, the Crate 455 adds a huge kick to that, plus my dice are pink! For that 55 chevy though man, try the chevy 327 small block V8, thats like THE engine fer that car IMO

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            38. by definition
              (963 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Also, Prof Hill at OSU was a student of Hemke, his tenor is an old Martin Stencil, lyon and healy. His alto while he does have a VI, he uses a YAS 23 just as often.

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            39. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              It's not the horn selmer 4ever, it's the player! Enough said!

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            40. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              In 1955, the only V8 Chevy made was a 265. In 1957, the came out with the 283, and the 327 came out in 1958 I believe, along with the 409. I think the 409 was an option on a 1958 Impala. I think you mean Boss 302 V8. I wasn't aware Ford made a 455. I know they made a 427; the motor Shelby modified for the Cobra, a 428, which was used in the GT 500, and a 429 Cobra Jet which was used in some of the later Cobra Mustangs. I love Chevy Bel Airs, Corvettes Impalas and Chevelles; Old Ford Model A's, Coupes, T Birds, Fairlanes, and Mustangs.

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            41. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Most Overrated French Colony?

              I just spent some quality time with a terrific King Cleveland tenor this morning - shedding the hair of the dog, so to speak. What PUNCH! The high end sings and the low end booms. What more could a Yank ask for? How about a poll on the most overrated French Colony?

              Reply To Post


            42. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I entered this discussion exactly for that ""a discusssion"", it is obvious that you guys don't own your horns or your opinions and they are not up for discussion . Seeing that everything ends up being personal I can only conclude that YOUR HORNS OWN YOU . You are enslaved by them and therefore you cannot detach yourselves long enough to have a sensible intelligent dialogue. Not one of you has yet to mention any redeeming value of these horns. Even I will agree that Selmers and Yam's of today have flaws ""The perfect Horn has not yet been made "" the conical bore is a toughy and compromises will always be part of the equation but seriously if it is not the arrow but the Indian?as connsaxman said it's not the horn selmer 4ever, it's the player! Enough said! ---then why get hung up on these antiques and pay nutty prices for antique brass mantlepieces ????

              Reply To Post


            43. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Passion. We all seek it in our own way, and there is no one object of desire that can soothe all men's souls.

              Reply To Post


            44. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              "I don't own my horns, my horns own me?" Well, I have put a lot of money into my horns. I try to keep them looking nice and in good playing condition. Collecting and restoring saxophones is an expensive hobby. selmer_4ever, you obviously do not understand my passion for vintage American saxophones; but as you can see, there are many others who share my opinion. These old horns have character, and some of the very flaws and antiquities that you are referring to are what make these horns special. The sound of my 10M still gives me goosebumps! She gets a lot of attention from other sax players, and more than once, they have asked to play her. After seeing what my old 1948 Conn can do, I have been offered new Super Action 80's in trade for her!

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            45. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Oh I forgot Montreal as a Jazz Mecca !!!! just ask Oscar Peterson ,,,Maynard Ferguson,,Oliver Jones,, Nick Aoub,,, etc --If you like pop ask Burt Baccarach ---ask the NY crowd where the in place was in the 30's 40's and 50's In case you didn't know Montreal !!!!!

              Reply To Post


            46. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Yeah - that was before all the good heroin made it to New York, mon cheri...

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            47. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              French colony??? how about La Nouvelle Orleans ,, Louisiana ,,,Lafayette,,just to mention a few I hear these places have musicians is this true? and for you guys in the centre of the US how about Des Moines !!!! oh and I hear that Bourbon is yankee Sure!!!!! talk about French a Colony you are as as can be that is why French Canadians have more affinity with the US than with say Vancouver ?? any way Montreal was named by an Italian not a french.Samuel de Champlain tried to call it Mont Royal it didn't stick.

              Reply To Post


            48. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              i should have figured it out-- how stupid of me--- all along this was all about drugs My initial question was what's up with these horns ??? you could have spared me the time and effort . Why didn't you tell me then ? You just had to say Because we're all on drugs !!! I would have understood.

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            49. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              all kidding aside--- if any of you guys ever come to Montreal you can stay at my house NO JOKE!!!

              Reply To Post


            50. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Thanks for the offer. And I'm sincere about my request for Coufs that might be in your area.

              Reply To Post


            51. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Will look aout for you !!!!!!

              Reply To Post


            52. by barimachine
              (323 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              ill be up for the festival but no thanks but grab me a 12m if you see one lying in the street, but seriously since you seem to think they just give these away or whatever what shops do you know their itll be my birthday will im their im gonna get me a present :) haha

              Reply To Post


            53. by barimachine
              (323 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              to be fair thats the point... less stress on the driver id much rather have a crushed car around me than an engine in my lap but also i support the REAL reason for this thread I myself am working on getting the money on trying to get a 12m bari maybe ill get one in montreal while im their for the festival or just nab one out of the dumpster haha

              Reply To Post


            54. by saxismyaxe
              (575 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Time out in the debate to give Sax Maniac a heads up on a Couf for sale: www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21031 Cheers. Mike

              Reply To Post


            55. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Thanks. I called and talked to Jim earlier today. I live only about an hour drive from his place and might stop by tomorrow to take a looky - maybe buy a horn or three. Depends on how much time I have - family day trip. I'll be driving nearby his place. Guess it also depends on how much cargo space a Buick LaCrosse has. Can always strap the kids to the roof to make room for a few more horns.

              Reply To Post


            56. by johnsonfromwisconsin
              (767 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You guys are a joke !!! Stencils,, Yam 23 ,,, Buescher,,,Vitos and so on,,,,,,,i guess The L A Sax Quartet ,,, Rousseau ,,,,Hemke ,,,,and other such americans are all wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Or perhaps there is no right answer to such a question? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tell me something what decent American Music School would let you pass final exams with playing a Conn,,King,,Martin and such while attending??? . Maybe one of you would like to audition for the Philadelphia Symphony and Riccardo Muti to play the Bolero or L'Arlesienne with a Zephyr,,,,oh don't forget the case of beer,,,, but don't burp into the sax it will raise its value ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A better question to ask would be: "If it's true that a great player sounds great no matter what pro equipment he uses, why do the various conservatories require a certain brand?". You might find the answer quite enlightening. -------------------------------- Please spare me the laughs. -------------------------------- how about the roll-eyes?

              Reply To Post


            57. by johnsonfromwisconsin
              (767 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              --------------------------------- Guess it also depends on how much cargo space a Buick LaCrosse has ------------------------------------ Do the LaCrosse's seats provide better, more sensable support than the Century? My Century has problems with left side of the seat sagging, causing an uncomfortable seating position and lower back pains on long trips.

              Reply To Post


            58. by sax_maniac
              (984 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              The LaCrosse interior is very well executed. You should try one with leather power seats so you have an adjustable lumbar (probably heated, to boot.) I was in mine for about 5 hours yesterday (cloth seats) and wished I had brought my lumbar pillow for the ride. the lease rates are quite good on them right now. If you're interested and want a discount on a new one, shoot me an email - I'll hook you up.

              Reply To Post


            59. by vipegrad
              (47 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              What ever happened to buick, they used to be cool. They built the first ever concept car after all. Oh well. I personally prefer my 82' Z28. But back on topic. I was once a lover of new horns. My eyes glossed over at the sight of shiny new saxes. This abruptly halted when i found that my holton, which i thought to be only 20 years old, is actually a 1911 model. I could not believe something so old could fit my hands like a glove and flow between my fingers like liquid. I have tried some other newer horns and found them to feel okward in my hands. The same goes for my tenor. I own a Yani which i am very happy with as i have tried some other horns, including the Mk VI. I have found that nothing quite fits my hands like my Yani. I have checked with others to see if this was a fluke. They found my horn to flat out beat their saxes for fit to the hands and easily rival tone. So overall, no matter how new a horn is, there is no reason that an older horn cannot rival or beat it for handling, tone, or price. Saxes are like a fine wine, as they grow older, the label may peel, the cork may harden, but they are overall better now then they were off the showroom floor. Also, leave the poor guy alone, maybe they are just partial to french brands in Canadia.

              Reply To Post


            60. by johnsonfromwisconsin
              (767 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              thanks for the offer _maniac, though I'm probably stuck with this for a few years yet. Really, it's a nice vehicle, but the seats are not designed properly. Too much support on one side and not very much at all on the other, something you wouldn't detect until a few weeks after....

              Reply To Post


            61. by eman19
              (131 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Selmer 4ever, I just wanted to add my bit about vintage american horns. I love mine. I find the quality to be just as good, if not better than a modern horn of the same price. I bought my Buescher True Tone for a grand, and in that price range, most modern horns play like, sound like or are sh*t, in my experience anyway. Also I like the indivuality of my horns. I get the sound I want from my Martin Comm. II, but even have the guys who play SBAs, Mark VI, the Ref 54 as well as custom horns want to check it out, and generally like how it fits in their hands as well as the horns that they've paid 2x up for. I'm not owned by my horn, because frankly, if a modern horn could meet my qualifications for tone, build quality and price, I would jump on it. But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong. So to add to the true reason for this post, put up my '28 jalopy of a True Tone Tenor, and my '39 Martin Committee II.

              Reply To Post


            62. by Dave Dix
              (421 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I can give the thumbs up for the buescher true tone tenors (i also have a t/t bari and alto) i also just bought a superb near 100% lacquered 1940 tenor aristocrat for a mear $415thats most probably cheaper then the cheapest chinese junker .Underestimated? you bet. Underpriced? you bet. Sound and build quality? the best you can get!!! I must thank the crap that comes out of asia as dimwitted people keep the prices down for us vintage horn players so we can afford decent instruments whilst the rest buy a nice shiny horn 'cos it looks good Dave

              Reply To Post


            63. by west
              (242 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I have no opinion because i haven't played either. I was just poking around the forums and found this discussion. I just think it's funny, but did anyone notice how quickly the post got off track? I know i'm changing the topic sort of, but this original topic was changed on the second post.LOL

              Reply To Post


            64. by eman19
              (131 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I think it has stayed somewhat on topic. While indeed the post was originally about a mark VII, the person asked what the most underrated horns were ever made. Thus people put in there own horns that they like. Nuff said.

              Reply To Post


            65. by west
              (242 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Yes, they were somewhat on topic. Funny all the same( at least from how i saw it.)

              Reply To Post


            66. by Candyboy
              (77 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Go Jim Go
              Doug Coffman

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            67. by Candyboy
              (77 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              The most underated horn has to be the 60M Pan Am tenor with the bell keys on the left side. The poor man's 10M. Plays just like the 10M, lighter weight if you stand and play for hours. Doesn't have all the fancy keys, just the bare necessities. I have bought and sold a few of these. The Vandoren T111 mouthpiece works so well with it that I keep a look out for them. And they really don't cost too much
              Doug Coffman

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            68. by Bleeding_Gums_Murphy
              (55 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I'd have to say the SML Rev. D and Gold Medals along with the Couf Superba I's. Most of the vintage horns were made with better workmanship than those made today, and with better materials. To get a modern horn that sounds like some of the vintage greats (6M's, Super 20's, SML's, Coufs), you'd have to lay out 4000 dollars for a shadow or a ref 54. I don't know if it's just me, but that is a sick amount of money to pay for an alto. Vintage saxes all sound and feel unique, whereas the ones today all sound standardized.

              Reply To Post


            69. by Candyboy
              (77 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I really have to say that Murph is right about the unique feel, and I can understand that someone used to a modern horn might find a vintage horn hard to get used to, off balance, mabe even clumbsy. That's what I thought at first.
              Doug Coffman

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            70. by connsaxman_jim
              (2336 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Couldn't agree more Murphy!

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            71. by chiamac
              (586 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I keep saying this, but I WILL put my '41 10M up to any new horn out there. The guy I bought it from said the horn plays almost like a new series 3 tenor... but I got it for about $3500 less. As for me, good saxes stopped being made in the 50s. I just like the idea of big band, swing, and all the jazz going on before. If The horns back then were good enough for playing bop, they should be good enough to play just about anything these days. but I'm a oldschool asshole when it comes to this kind of stuff! Although I would much rather see someone go though new horns then be hell bent on buying an old selmer.

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            72. by chiamac
              (586 posts)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              "Couldn't agree more Murphy!" remeber conns little set screws on every post? NO ONE does that anymore!

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            73. by Anthony0101
              (1 post)

              19 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I play on a beautifull tenor Martin Comm II and I really love this horn. The dark huge sound, the keywork. Pure emotion and in my opinion much better then the boring French sound of the Mark VI. Then I own also an old York Grand Rapids which I bought very cheap but has a good almost impressive sound.

              Reply To Post


            74. by Radjammin
              (255 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              All these feel good entries about how if you feel good about yourself, then your good makes me feel sick. I read every single entry before I respond. I would say Sax music has been dominated by American players so we got that going for us, both legit and Jazz. I think Mark VI is at the top of the sax Hype Tree. I think playing on modern keywork is important for action responce. I think the Selmer VII is a good horn, my teacher in college played one and he had an awesome legit sound. I think the problem, which people seem to foget is that people don't like the horn because it's not a VI. They don't like it becuase it is inconsistant. Some of them are great, some of them are junk. Well expensive junk. American horns had such a dry spell after 1970 that you have to buy older horns because all the70,80,90 models are mostly student crap. So where you get a proven horn from pre 1970, you also get dated Keywork. So there's the delema, If you do buy pre 1970 you get a great sound, but the keys are so so. No only are they 30 plus years old there design is dated. So great deals? The american horns are gonna win, but after 1970 the Selmer Mark VII is probaby the best deal of the high end players, IF you can find one that plays well. Not a horn you would buy on ebay! Play first and then decide. What do I play? Just bought a 2002 Cannonball for $1400. Am I happy with my purchase? Yep. I wanted a post 1970 player for the keywork. I wanted a big belled horn for the sound. I got it in the Cannonball. So I did try to get everything. I guess time will tell if I really did get everything. Sure is perdy. Weighs a bit. They didn't have laser engraving in 1970, lol.

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            75. by EL Seano
              (255 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Ok, Sorry if I'm bringing up a random subject, but anyways, Conn's are fan-bloody-tastic horns no doubt, but I noticed that on the Chu Berry that the low keys (low Bb, B C# etc) that it would be extremely difficult to play a low Bb jumping to a low C#, Am I wrong? I'm just worried that I'll get a Chu Berry and then at an audition or something the adjudicators will ask me to play a two octave Bb Blues scale that I won't be able to do due to the horn. Am I wrong? Is it possible to play from low Bb jumping to a low C#,? Thanks Sean

              Reply To Post


            76. by Dave Dix
              (421 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Yes you can , thats why rollers are put on the L/H pinky cluster

              Reply To Post


            77. by Radjammin
              (255 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              You say it so matter of fact. From an experienced 6M Pro Conn Player : Yes, the Spatula keys on it are difficult. To suggest that the rollers make it cake to play them is almost humorus. I would say the rollers make them possible. If they weren't there then you would have better luck at pressing the pads down with your leg..... With some practice you will be able to play scales successfully using them. It won't feel great. But they should be smooth. The most difficult to hit is the C# effectivly. The B key, even as they are small is usally fairly easy. For me when I talk about modern keywork, the Spatula keys are #1 in my mind. I recently switched to a Cannonball. The thing I miss the most is my underslung octive key. I haven't played the cannonball long enough, but I currently think the understung octive key on my 50+ old Conn was more responsive.

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            78. by Dave Dix
              (421 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              I do have 3 conn tenors a new wonder series 1 ,new wonder series 2 (commonly called chu berry ) and a 10m conn. It is possible to go from low Bb to C# ,not as easy as a modern horn but still possible but its not that easy on any horn Dave

              Reply To Post


            79. by Candyboy
              (77 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              The Chu Berry is my favorite tenor I have one that I've modified with a little tongue that sticks up on the C# so that I hit it with the palm of my hand just below my left pinky, this makes it possible to go from C# to B or Bb very fast
              Doug Coffman

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            80. by Candyboy
              (77 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Sean, you could take an old US penny, bend it approxiately 90 derees at the bottom of the building stamped on the back.(Lincoln memorial I think) Clean it then, solder it to your low C# key just opposite the roller but low enough to miss the G#. with this modification and a little body english (rocking the left hand) you can speed through the pinky keys. I use this alot especially going from low Bb toC#then to C and back in the G blues.
              Doug Coffman

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            81. by Roccosm
              (113 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Sean I have a conn Alto sn 25459 built in the late 20's that play,s unbeleivable, the mellow sound is addicting, I play it as Much on Job's as My 69 selmer 6

              Reply To Post


            82. by Roccosm
              (113 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Friend ,someone wanted to sell me a m6 tenor and m6 alto when he showed up he had a 6 tenor and what i thought was a 6 alto was a 7 I played the horn before I knew it was a 7 and it played every bit as well as my 69 gold plated m6 i was so suprized to learn that I was playing a 7 rather than a 6. I play the 7 more that the 6 now.. it is a great sounding horn, i am lookin for a 7 tenor now You Know honestly if he would have said it was a 7 insted of a 6 I might have told him not to bother, I bought the m6 tenor and the M7 alto on the spot,,,5000. Rocco

              Reply To Post


          2. by ps
            (35 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

            I agree. I bought an early mkvii (246xxx) in about 1977 or 78. I'm not, never was, nor ever will be a pro, but I thought this horn played beautifully. It played in tune, blew easily,really projected, and was very well constructed. A couple of very good pro players tried this horn and had the same opinion. I ended up selling it this summer. It was just sitting in it's case and I thought someone really should be enjoying this horn. Now I'm missing it and trying to find something to replace it. I've bought three or four vintage horns off ebay(a tenor, alto and a couple sopranos). I'll keep one when I find one I like and sell the rest. It's kind of an interesting hobby right now. But when you say,"i've got a mk vii for sale" most people say"o. they're no good. I want a mark vi" without even looking at the horn never mind playing it.

            Reply To Post


            1. by selmer 4evr
              (309 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

              Here is my previous post that touted the VII as a unique horn I still believe this !!!!! I have owned and played many a sax from cigar cutter to a few markVIs to SA80s to Series IIs and I have tried some series IIIs but a VII is unique . Let me tell you about a discussion with Londeix . The last time he came to Montreal for masterclasses I spoke with him on this particular subject. Unhappy with my Series II I asked him if he could pick out a horn for me the next time he was at Selmer Paris ( I studied with one of his prize students and I had good connections here). I had tried some of his horn picks ( for his students) and they are amazing. I also told him that I always preferred my VII to any horn I had ever tried. He responded this way: "All Selmers saxes from BAs to SBA, to VI, to SA80 to Ser II are all, in his words "beautiful mares". The MarkVII is more of a "thorough-bred stallion" wild temperamental and difficult to tame, but when you can tame and harness it,,,, nothing comes close. Anyway I still love, own, and play MarkVIIs even though I try just about everything . One more thing of interest ,,you have to know what you are doing when you oick a horn. All the horns he picked for his students were never liked at the beginning. This was especially true of the VIIs, they showed their potential after six months or so !!!! My teacher's horn ( 1977 ) took one year to develop and lose its original resistance ,,I have tried to purchase it on many occasions no dice!!!! He plays classical to jazz and it works on everything. The horn slices through any section. By the way I tell everybody that VIIs are not a good horn and to stay away!!! This keeps the price down and me happy,, try to do the same.

              Reply To Post


              1. by EL Seano
                (255 posts)

                18 years ago

                Re: Most Underated Horns Ever and they really Don't Cost Too Much

                I just got a very nice 6m for xmas, she plays great, but i got a size 1.5 reed with it so i cant play it in tune yet. it sounds great even with that crappy reed. it doesnt have and lacquer left either, so she can project really well. And i have no problems with the low keys, they are all very smooth. she has the micro tuner and the underslung 8ve key, similiar to the one bird played. Thanks for all the advice, Sean.

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