To answer your question, I suppose the keys and pitch have a lot to do with the earlier instruments that the saxophone was designed after, and designed to accompany. Cornets and most Clarinets are also in the key of Bb. Conn had hoped that the saxophone would find favor in the orchestral setting, and the C Melody as well as both a soprano and bass in C were developed early on. Unfortunately this was not the case. The saxophone became very popular due in part to John Philip Sousa, and the military bands of the late 1890's and early 1900's.

"To answer your question, I suppose the keys and pitch have a lot to do with the earlier instruments that the saxophone was designed after, and designed to accompany. Cornets and most Clarinets are also in the key of Bb." yes, but this just pushes the question back one level: why do cornets and clarinets use flat keys as their most natural key? why is *their* music written as if it were in C, when it is actually being played in Bb or Eb? what is the advantage of adding the extra difficulty of transposition? why isn't a C a C?

There are several possible reasons why these instruments were pitched in those keys. With wind instruments, the pitch is in relation to the size of the horn; the smaller the horn, the higher the pitch. The pitch standards did vary back in the early days also. Many instruments were made in high pitch and low pitch versions up until the 1930's when low pitch became standard. I surmise that when the earlier instruments were made, the pitch was more trial and error. In other words, the horn was created a certain size, and then the pitch was adjusted to match the closest not on a piano, which apparently happened to be Bb. That's my guess, anyway. Then, when the saxophone came along, if followed the same trend, only with perhaps more precision than some of the earlier instruments. At the time the saxophone was invented, their were basically 2 different forums; the sting orchestras which featured violins, violas, and cellos, or the horn marching bands and military bands. As I mentioned, the saxophone was rejected by the string orchestra forum, and gained popularity in the late 1890's and early 1900's in military and marching bands. If the horn would have been better accepted in the string orchestra forum, perhaps the C saxophones would have been most popular instead of the Bb and Eb instruments. A "C" major scale has no flats or sharps. A "C" scale on a tenor saxophone would be in the key of Bb. On an alto it would be Eb. The saxophone keys are as follows: Sopranino "Eb" Soprano "C" or "Bb" Mezzo soprano in "F" Alto "Eb" C Melody "C" Tenor "Bb" Baritone "Eb" Bass "Bb" (very few basses were also made in the key of C) The EXTREMELY rare Contra-Bass in "Eb"

but mazart's orchestra (and haydn's and beethoven's as well) already integrated clarinets and valveless "natural" horns before the popularity of valved cornets and almost-modern many-keyed clarinets. i believe tht many early clarinets were in C and most orchestral horns were in C or G. there would have been at least a continued demand for brass and winds to play in classical and later larger romantic orchestras. why would these have drifted away from normal orchestral keys? and i still see no rational excuse for writing the music so a written C to produce a Bb... this question has bothered me for several years. i have asked many music teachers, and nobody seems to have a ational explanation for why horns' notation is transposed. btw i am intrigued by your claim that there were mezzo soprano saxes in F. this is cool! have you ever seen one? how many were made? did this last through the golden age of the C-melody sax?

right after reading your last post i googled and found this amazing beast: www.cybersax.com/Fmez_213k.html and there seems to be more... too bad this style didn't survive. many of us who come from recorder background would feel right at home in F... sigh.

If our instruments were not transposing instruments, we would have to learn two entire sets of fingerings what are currently the Eb and Bb horns. In other words, when we play alto, we would have to call three fingers of the left hand "B-flat", but when we switch to tenor, that fingering would become "F". If there were only one standard size of saxophone, that would be no problem, but with the variety of sizes, it would be an issue. Let alone the fact that on baritone and bass, we would need to learn bass clef. Certainly, we could all learn alto, tenor, and bass clefs, but I believe that most of us would prefer not to. By being transposing instruments, the composer/arranger does the transposing work, rather than the performer. As you know, clarinets are pitched in A, Bb, C, D, and E-flat. Imagine the challenges to the player if they had to learn new fingerings for each one! It is common in an orchestral score to switch frequently between A and B-flat clarinets. Imagine that the "sounding" basic "C" scale would have to be learned as a Bb scale on one horn and an "A" scale on the other. No fun! In creating the Bb/Eb military and C/F orchestral familes of saxophones, Adolphe Sax brilliantly provided a large and varied group of instruments, but, in a genius stroke of practicality, ensured that the performer could play all with the same set of fingerings.

Jim I noticed your post "A "C" major scale has no flats or sharps. A "C" scale on a tenor saxophone would be in the key of Bb. On an alto it would be Eb". Thats wrong dude. The reason why saxophones are pitched differently is so that us, the saxophone player, can pick up any of the saxes and be able to play them and read music the same on each horn. Now for pitches, they say the tenor / soprano / bass are keyed in Bb. That means that a C on those horns, equals a Bb concert. On the sopranino / alto / bari, they are pitched in Eb, which means that a C on those horns, equals a concert Eb. This is a post for everybody to learn, myself included, but if you are not sure of something, please don't confuse people that might take your word quite seriously.

theatari, you obviously didn't understand my post! I know it's confusing, but try to stay with me here! On a Bb instrument, C=Bb. When you play a "C" scale, you are playing what would actually be a Bb scale on a piano for example. When you play in the key of C, you are actually playing in Bb. A "C" scale would include C, D, E, F, G, A ,B, C. NO FLATS OR SHARPS! Now do you understand what I mean? If you wanted to play along with a piano playing in the key of C, you would need to play a Bb saxophone in the key of D. A "D" scale would be D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D. Notice, there are 2 sharps. If the instrument is in the key of Eb such as an alto, than C=Eb. In order to play along with a piano playing in C, you would need to play in the key of A. an A scale would include A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A, which would be 3 sharps. Now does this make more sense to you?

Yes, mikoformiko. I own a Conn F Mezzo soprano from 1928. Unfortunately, they were only made for just a couple years along with the Conn-O-Sax, another F-keyed saxophone instrument why looked more like a Hecklaphone with a funny ball-shaped round bell. These instruments were first introduced as something new by Conn in 1928.

theatri wrote: Now for pitches, they say the tenor / soprano / bass are keyed in Bb. That means that a C on those horns, equals a Bb concert. On the sopranino / alto / bari, they are pitched in Eb, which means that a C on those horns, equals a concert Eb. Isn't that what I just said? This is a post for everybody to learn, myself included, but if you are not sure of something, please don't confuse people that might take your word quite seriously. At age 32, I've been playing piano for 27 years, guitar for 24 years, and sax for 22 years. I've played professionally since I was 17 (15 years). I am completely sure about the information I posted, but I can't account for your lack of understanding.

The keys of the various saxophones as well as many other wind instruments are set at equal increments. There are 12 notes in a chromatic scale: C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B. An Eb baritone is 5 chromatic steps up from a Bb bass, a Bb tenor would be 7 chromatic steps up from the Eb Baritone, or a full octave up from the bass. An Eb alto would be 5 chromatic steps up from a tenor, or a full octave up from a baritone. A Bb Soprano is 7 chromatic steps or 1 full ocatave up from a tenor. Then, of course, the sopranino is 5 chromatic steps up from the Soprano, or a full octave up from an alto. The reason for these increments is pretty obvious if you understand the theory of fifths.

"The reason for these increments is pretty obvious if you understand the theory of fifths." sure. if you're using Bb as a norm, then Eb is as natural as F. but why not use C and F, like recorders do? and why not actually write the music so when you play a C, a C comes out of the horn? and i still think it is rather silly and unfortunate that C & F horns didn't survive... they make much more sense when playing with strings. the whole business of requiring transposing to make sense of the written music seems a bizarre holdover from an age when it might have made sense. many students of wind instruments begin with recorders, for which the printed C is actually a C. many recorder players graduate up to the alto, so they need to learn a new set of fingerings, but at least it's still pretty straightforward: a C is still a C. then when students move up to clarinet or saxophone, the rationality of the music notation system shifts: it becomes a kind of tablature. the written note refers to the fingering, not the actual pitch. i understand that there is a lot of historical inertia behind this system, and that there are some advantages, but i find that the disadvantages FAR outweigh the advantages...

I understand your point miko, and I even agree with you in some ways, but many companies over the years have tried to market C saxophones, but they were unsuccessful. The C Melody is now becoming more and more of a collector's item, and I keep hoping that someone; maybe Keilwerth perhaps, will offer a new version of a C Melody saxophone, and possibly other C horns. Jim