If anyone is looking to buy a new horn in the right price range- definitely try a Cannonball. I just bought one and did a lot of investigating first. There were problems rumored with the older models. I got the newest out there- the Stone Cutter series... some people don't llike the "Excaliber" engraving on the Big Bells... well, now there's the Gerald Albright model with might engraving. I played a Mark VI (until my repair idiot accidentally relacquered it) and then a Yani in high school... they took me all the way to State and Four States Honor Band. The Yani would have paid my way through college, but I didn't go at that time. Now, 7 years later, I decided to go back and decided that I didn't want to pay. I would need an awesome horn for cheap and landed on the CB. For all the skeptics, try one. I did and it got me a FULL SCHOLARSHIP 7 years out of high school. I tried a couple of other used horns before I settled on this one. My boyfriend, having never played anything... asked "why can't you just go to the local music store and buy a cheap horn? What's the difference..." I tried to explain to him that it would be like racing a pinto... no matter how good the driver, the car just couldn't beat a Mustang, etc. When he heard me play 5 or 6 notes on the CB, he was sold. The whole horn plays in tune and is very comparable- I said COMPARABLE, not better- to a Mark VI. If I had the money, I never would have tried the CB. But, I didn't, so here I am... thank you Cannonball for putting out an awesome sax at an incredible price! P.S. I didn't receive any endoresements or special/custom adjustments to my horn for making that statement.

Hello everyone! Hope youre all donig okay. Okay, enough with the smalltalk. I recently went to Griggs Music Store and started to look for a new saxophone. (Mine is a King, a beginner). I tried out a few saxophones (Yamahas, Selmers, and some beginners) The Yamahas were nice, but they just werent my style. The selmers were WAY out of my price range, and I dont want another beginners saxophone. So I tried out the Cannonball Big Bell. After reading this entire thread, I was a little weary of buying one. After I tried it though, I couldnt put it down. I know that seemed cheasy, but I jsut lvoed it. Not only did it sound great (kind of like the Mark VI that i tried), but it was also in my price range! They only cost about 2000 dollars, and they play as if they were worth 3500! The only doubt i have about the CBs is if they will hold up over time. Selmer has already established that theirs will continue to hold up,(sometimes improve!) but what will happen to the CBs? I am willing to take a chance with the CBs, they sound just too damn good.

I've had a big bell for several years now, and play it pretty much every day. I've taken it on the road, on the plane, etc. and I've never had anything fall off or break. You are going to get several types of responses in here, I'm willing to bet. There are some who feel they are good, some feel they are absolute crap (though many who feel this way have never tried one, and never will - which leaves me wondering how they can speak with such authority). But your question is specifically about longevity. Who can answer that? I'm willing to bet it will hold up with the best of them. And here is why I say that. Not only do I have a big bell tenor, I also have an older ('98 knight) alto. There are things I notice that are improvements to the big bell that to me show obvious differences in quality - differences of that type that in my opinion will amount to differences in longevity. The most noticeable one is something to which Cannonball makes reference on their own website (if you check out their website, you will find they are very upfront, honest and straightforward about these things). The thing I notice is how much harder the brass is on the keywork on the Big Bell horns. My '98 knight seems to stay adjusted just fine; but I was able to bend keys to suit my individual preferences for hand positioning, etc. NOT SO WITH THE BIG BELL. I tried adjusting one or two while they were on the horn. Couldn't do it. I had to remove them, and drive over them with a tank to bend them. The brass is every bit as solid, in my opinion, as my old buffet (which, by the way, was the horn I didn't want to give up for anything until I played about 6 notes on a Cannonball). It's only my opinion, but i hope it helps.

I tried some Selmers, and although they sounded beautiful, it didn't have as rich as a tone as the yamaha pros did. Liked it, didn't love it. Yamaha 82z was awesome and i jave yet to try the yas-875. Cannonballs are far from my favorite. Not the worst, the near the best. I'll leave it at that

Jupiter is made in Taiwan. So is Cannonball and Antigua Winds, LA Sax, and Winston. Many of the student model Selmer and Keilwerth horns are also made in Taiwan. Some of the new horns sold under various names owned by Conn-Selmer, like the new Conn, King, and Armstrong saxophones, are also made in Taiwan. Many are made in the same factory, and are basically copies of each other with different engravings, mouthpieces and accessories. The Cannonball horns are decent intermediate horns. I think the newer horns like the Big Bell Global Series are much better than previous models. When I first played a Knight about 3 years ago, I was not too impressed, but I recently played a silver alto that played very well, and sounded a lot like a King Silversonic! They have improved the quality of their horns quite a bit in the last couple years. I do think that the Yamaha horns are a better horn for the same money. The Taiwanese horns are considerably better than the Chinese horns

I must say, for crapppy, mass produced, cheap, horribly sounding instruments CB's sure generate a lot of controversy and some of the longest lingering threadlife of any topics in these forums. CB's are either a cancer and the multitude of "expert" armchair musicians who have never EVEN OWNED one are chemotherapy, or vice-versa. I have OWNED an earlier model gorgeous black silver CB tenor that I later sold and upgraded to a particularly phenomenal MK VI tenor which is my main axe. I have an equally incredible BA Alto that I play as well. After auditioning a three year old CB soprano and playing my friends new Stone Series Tenor and Alto CB's (he hasn't touched his Venerable Mk VI's since he got them) I am convinced that my next soprano, bari, tenor and alto might be the new CB's. Anyway we went to LA to watch Pete Christleb blow on his new CB's (he denied any financial endorsement incentives from the CB people...btw Connsax Jim dont you think Selmer, Yamaho and Yani companies could EASILY buy back the support from the many professionals, including Gerald Albright, from such a puny, crappy, cash strapped company as CB?). Anyway Pete never sounded better. Anyway I'm not going to pretend like a lot of you to know all the rediculously BS inaccurate details of The TAIWAN companies. I propose to offer something that I think would be much more valuable than my personal opinion. I'm going to offer you first hand information from the horses's mouths so that the truly inquisitive can continue to form their own opinions regardless of the continued questionable submissions of NON-OWNER self-professed ARMCHAIR MUSCIANS who continue to Preach out their asses. With that said please consider the following articles and websites for your continued professional growth and enjoyment. Recent article by Jason Dumars @: www.dumarsengraving.com/cannonball/cbreview.html The official CB Wegsite @: www.cannonballmusic.com/index.php The Evil Owner's Interview @:www.mmrmagazine.com/mmrmag/mar03/upfront.html In closing I believe that everyone as the right of free speech and should continue to exercise it whenever possible. However I feel that we who take it upon ourselves to wear the heavy responsible "Mantle" of an educator should likewise quit talking out your ass. These threads are started by people who have sincere questions that are better suited by answers from people who are truly KNOWLEDGEABLE (preferably a REAL PREVIOUS OWNER) or at least objective. Some of us really love to hear ourselves talk...sometimves over and over and over again (Jim) when maybe we should "listen". At the very least do your homework and be prepared to back up your statements. And finally....De you guys ever wonder why the truly GREAT players do not participate in these forums? Could it be that they are open minded and really don't care about the crap that seems to consume the rest of us wannabees. Just reread all the posts after reading the above links and see what you think then. Then just hit google...enter cannonball queries and continue your journey. Search out the pros who are playing these things and find out what they really think. Falling off my Soapbox now.. Ciao, Jeff

Jeff, I have played several Cannonball horns, and while I agree the quality has gotten considerably better the last couple years with the Big Bell Global Series, I have yet to play a Cannonball that I wanted to own. As for talking out my ass, I think that my experience as a saxophonist, and collector entitles me to express my opinions with credibility. When compared to Selmer and Yanagisawa, I would be likely to choose the new Cannonball over both. I think that the Selmer is highly over-rated, and I don't feel that the quality is worth the price! The quality of the Yanagisawa instrument is very good, but I don't care for the tone. The Cannonball I played recently reminded me of a King Silversonic, and the sax sounded really good. When you compare a Cannonball to a Keilwerth, or a Yamaha, I think that the Keilwerth especially comes out on top, and the Yamaha 62 Series II is a GREAT buy.

Jim I respect your opinion and in no way mean to denigrate you as a human. However for a guy who has never even owned one maybe your advice really isnt extensive enough to comment, repeatedly and with such conviction (intimating deep personal experience and insider knowledge) regarding the Cannonball line. This is a Cannonball thread, not a "I tried a few at the local store"....That experience is not truly reflective of what the majority of satisfied consumers have experienced out in the real world. As a collector and saxaphonist you are clearly qualified to give probably significant advice on at least the equipment you have personal and extensive experience. You have self-admittedly limited your involvement regarding ownership experience of CB instruments, yet you carry on as if you are more than qualified with your limited life experience to denigrate this product. I notice that you are an avid poster in many threads and I'm sure that you are much more qualified to offer professional advice in those areas...I just think your experience, and the majority of other detractors posting on this, and other CB threads out there in Space, does not lend you to be a credible source of repeated opinion, regardless of your personal honesty and integrity. Peace, Jeff

Jeff, when I review a saxophone, I don't just try it out in a store; I take it home with me for a weekend, or take it to a gig and play the CRAP out of it! I have had a very good relationship with a local music store, and I have written reviews on various products and horns. I've played just about every brand of saxophone you can think of. I appraise vintage horns, and I do some restoration and repair myself also, so I know what to look for in terms of quality of craftsmenship. Cannonballs have gotten considerably better over the past few years. I think they make a pretty nice horn. I don't feel that I am "bashing" them in any way. But, I just don't feel that the quality of the Cannonballs is on the same level as the Keilwerths or the Yamahas. Selmers......well, I wasn't very impressed with the Series III I just traded off. I have my opinions about Selmer. I play mostly vintage. I haven't found a new horn that appealed to me as much as the vintage horns I have played.

What specific physical characteristics do you refer to when you say the quality isn't there?

Here are some more webpages with information or CB history, philosophy, building materials and craftsmanship. I am married to an souteast asian-american woman. The Asian cultural mastercraftsmen take great pride in their products. To make crap is to disgrace their family and worse yet, their ancestors. Although it is true that crappy production line type products can come out of asian factories we also accept the fact that asian fit and finish can indeed exceed worldwide standards as well as evidenced by established Pre-WWII era behemoths such as Yamaha, Yanigasawa, Sony..etc...Yamaha makes some of the worlds best products from cars, motorcycles, hi end audio equip, in addition to fine musical instruments. But there is always room on the global block for improvement and innovation. Here they are... Some more of the Owners: www.cannonballmusic.com/about.php FAQ: www.cannonballmusic.com/faq.php Current REAL MUSCICIANS who just happen to be overly ecstatic OWNERS (I wonder Jim how much it cost them to buy all these endorsers?) Lets hear what these professionals (not disrespectful 9th graders or dubious armchair musicians) say: www.cannonballmusic.com/artists.php Skip Mesquite: Founding member and lead tenor, Tower of Power. Plays with Cold Blood, and Deniece Williams: "I've been playing Cannonball Saxophones for 5 years now and I'm always asked about them. Three things come immediately to mind: 1. Playability 2. Durability and 3. Intonation from Altissimo to low B flat. You can't ask for more than that! If there is, Tevis and Sheryl would figure it out." Mike Dubaniewicz: Music Director and Lead alto for Maynard Ferguson: "After grueling months and years on the road, and around the world; my Cannonball Saxophone held up to all sorts of abuse. These horns are built well and the intonation is very consistent. I have had the pleasure of slaying many an audience with my Cannonball!...Thanks Tevis!!!" Katja Rieckermann: Plays with Rod Stewart and Brooks and Dunn: "I love the Cannonball tenor! It feels like a Mark 6 and has a very big and warm sound that cuts through great in any musical situation. Also, the intonation is impeccable throughout the whole register. I have been getting a lot of compliments on the design (black nickel plated body with silver plated keys). It's very rock 'n roll and classy at the same time." New Century Saxophone Quartet: One of the hottest saxophone ensembles in the market today. "I knew from the first few notes that this horn was for me. I need a horn with a full bodied sound, but that can play sweet and light as a flute. The Big Bell curved soprano did that for me." - Michael Stephenson (Quartet member) "Up until Cannonball I wouldn't even consider playing a horn that was made after the 60's." - Christopher Hemingway (Quartet member) "The best baritone I have ever played!!"- Brad Hubbard (Quartet member) "I was looking to see what was out there in the saxophone world. I tried everything on the market, new and old. I came across a Cannonball. I have to say, I never thought I would find a better horn for what I do that what I already had. I was wrong. This horn plays like it's alive!! Bravo Cannonball, after 20 years New Century has found a home." - Stephen Pollock (Quartet member) Glen Berge: Saxophonist with the NFL band: " My Cannonball Alto & Tenor saxes make playing in any situation a real pleasure! These horns have a smooth fingerboard, play better in tune than my Mark VI's*, and have a bigger tone!!! It is also one of the best looking horns out there!! Thanks Cannonball!!" Steve Tavaglione-Steve Tavaglione is a world-famous studio musician with a resume unequaled in the industry: "The ease of playing the altissimo registers of these saxophones isunparalleled. The horns speak clearly and the action is amazing. The side keys are much easier to manage than Selmers and invite new ideas to emerge because of that. I am 100% sold on theseinstruments. I find that these saxes are perfect for any style of music without having to adjust anything. Thank you Cannonball!" Jamey Aebersold-Extrordinary saxophonist and jazz educator. Writer of his famous improvisation series: "I like the mellow sound of the Cannonball Big Bell soprano and the fingering ease. The curved neck gives me the sound I've always looked for." Pete Christlieb-World class Tenor player, "Tonight Show Band", Sax solos for Steely Dan and "Unforgettable" with Natalie Cole: "I've been going back and forth between a Mark VI* and a Balanced Action* for years, and this is the first horn in 20 years I've played that is comparable in sound and feel to either one." Gerald Albright-Gerald Albright is a multi-instrumentalist known for his lyrical sax playing in both contemporary and straight-ahead genres: "One of the most beautiful experiences in music is to develop a oneness with the instrument of choice. The Cannonball Horns have accurately delivered every musical speech that I have given to my audiences around the world. Develop The Oneness--with Cannonball." Brian Crowne: "I have been looking for a new horn for several years to replace my trusty old King tenor and finally found it in the Big Bell Tenor. I was preparing to buy a new Custom Yamaha, but was so impressed with the comfort, playability and tone of the Cannonball that I immediately changed my mind. The response is exceptional, the altisimo is effortless and wide open. It reminds me a lot of the old Selmer Mark VI's & Balanced Actions, which is cool!" Sam Skelton Professor of Saxophone: Georgia State University Kennesaw State Universtiy Jazz Ensemble Director: Georgia Tech Jazz Artist in Residence: University of Georgia: "Cannonball saxes are of the highest calibre!! No other manufacturer comes to mind in terms of the level of finish work on each and every instrument. The result of the hand work gives them superior pitch and one of the most stable overtone series I have ever experienced! With two necks of different finishes, the player is afforded different tonal spectrums and resistance. Haven't played a Cannonball yet that wasn't outstanding. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!" Bootsie Barnes- Celebrated Philadelphia Tenor player. Currently with Bill Cosby's Dream Band: "When I'm not touring, I play Philly clubs six nights a week. I need a horn that sounds great, plays great and stands up to life on the road. If I can play one that doesn't cost me a year's rent, all the better." Celebrated Philadelphia Tenor player. Currently with Bill Cosby's Dream Band. Russ Bryant: “I have played a Mark VI for years and from the moment I picked up the Cannonball I fell in love. I love the big, warm sound I get from it and it really allows me to let loose. It has proven itself as a solid horn for me in the studio and on tour with various groups.” Sammy Peralta-highly sought after Grammy Award Winner, producer, writer and touring musical director, Sammy needs the absolute best equipment with him at all times. He states of Cannonball horns: "The team at Cannonball has definitely developed a winning formula with its wonderful horns. Their quality and intonation is superb. A true attention to detail. It is nice to know that I can always count on them in the studio or on the road." Brent Jensen-Director of Jazz Studies, College of Southern Idaho: "I've played Cannonball saxophones in recordings, at club dates, and concerts. I have found them to have great intonation, wonderful response and an altissimo that is superior to that of my former horn, a Yamaha Custom.*" Timothy Ishii-Music Department Chairman, Texas Wesleyan University: "Cannonball saxophones offer the student and professional breadth and depth of tone lacking in other leading brands of saxophones. Rich tone quality, resonance and response, make these instruments well suited for crossing over between the classical and jazz idioms. I highly reccomend them... and at these prices, you can't afford not to have one." Robert Zuckerman-Saxophonist with San Francisco/Bay Area legend Lydia Pence and Cold Blood: "Initially looking for a back-up horn, I happened upon the Cannonball 'Raven' Big Bell tenor saxophone and found that it outperformed my main axe with a superior 'fat' low end, superior balance and intonation throughout, smooth key mechanism and feel, great harmonic overtones allowing ease in the altismo range, and a great overall sound. After getting over the shock and counterintuitive notion that the Cannonballs should not be more affordable than the other available professional horns, I am happily 'sold' on the Cannonball horns. My Cannonball is now my main axe. I recently have been playing the 'Raven' Big Bell curved soprano saxophone which has the elusive soprano sound I have desired and had been unable to find. I have not had this much fun playing since I was a kid (a few years ago)." David McMurray-Amazing Saxophonist and Music Director with KEM. Plays with Chuck Loeb, and Bob James: "I love the Cannonball saxophones. They are very versatile. They give me the grit when playing with rock and funk bands, and yet give me the warmth when doing smooth jazz or ballads. I'm a fan of 40's jazz, and the Cannonball tenor gives me that power. They gives me the full range of the horn very evenly...and I dig the bottom." Stanley Turrentine-"I became one with your horn the first few notes I played." Wow....what more really needs to be said? How much does it costs to keep all these Cats "Paid For"? I really am done now...lol. Peace, Saxyjeff

Yeah. What he said..... I've always found it amusing that I've NEVER heard a Cannonball fan call Selmers "crap." I would never say Keilwerth is crap. I would never say it about Yamaha, or Yanagisawa. I would likely say that I found a noticeable difference between my Cannonball Big Bell tenor and a Jupiter artist series, and I prefer my Cannonball. I would say I notice differences between the Keilwerths and the Yamahas and Selmers, and the Cannonball I decided to buy. I preferred the Cannonball. But I would never say the others are anything less than very good. But they're not my preference. So why is it that fans of the others never knock the others with such gusto as they knock Cannonball? I have to say I expect it is a psychological phenomenon, but I couldn't begin to figure out what it is.... When some of you guys say, "the quality is just not there," what, specifically, do you mean? Don't answer that with "they've come a long way." Either offer specific examples, and WHY, please, that you offer them. I think SaxyJeff has made lots of good points (lots of points, yeah). And I've asked in here before about the quality question, but I never get an answer. And, Jeff, I hate to break it to you, but I'm willing to bet this won't be the last of the thread. Sorry.....

lol....isnt the high school kid who started all this on Social Security by now? I love my vintage horns. Like I said this started out as a thread from a kid asking for some advice about CB's and I expect he meant from people who were happy with them. I currently don't own any but will soon after my Series III Tenor and Mk VI Soprano clear Ebay. I'm selling great horns...I just dont need them anymore. Anyway as a businessman/entrepeneur I was very pleased to learn more about the people who have started this company and their mission for us. I wonder how many years those stinky smelly frenchies cranked out crappy horns until they developed the BA-VI's?? Dont see a lot a activity on Ebay for those 80 year old horns except as museum curios. They should be respected as noteworthy predecessors to a "Bigger Vision" that Selmer Co finally attained. The CB people are no more/ no less passionate about their product. Without naming brands we all are aware of the really pure massmarket junk out there (many regrettably from Asia) that are flooding the market with cheap, student horns bought by ignorant parents who wish only the best for the little Coltranes. I have yet to see an endorsement page with luminaries such as CB has gradually "earned" with the continual evolution of their horns, driven by their own personal committment to their vision. They have arrived. I suspect in the next 5 years this thread will be reflecting back at the earlier posts as the inevitable consequence of innovation. Who knows...after CB buys out Selmer in another 15 years some of our statements may wind up in their $15.99 Barnes & Noble History Book special...lol anyway I hope CB stays small and focussed so that they may always continue to help the others in raising the bar of excellence for us and those that are sure to follow. Jeff

Jeff says "Like I said this started out as a thread from a kid asking for some advice about CB's and I expect he meant from people who were happy with them." BUT READ THIS!!! "I currently don't own any but will soon after my Series III Tenor and Mk VI Soprano clear Ebay." How do you know how well they REALLY hold up if you yourself do not own one, and I seriously doubt your are qualified enough as a repair tech to notice the flaws in Cannonball craftsmenship. I feel that a lot of Cannonball's claims are highly overstated. It's a million dollar sales pitch for an $1800 horn! Let me explain what I mean about the quality of Cannonballs. This is right from their website. Big Bell Global Series was given its name partly because we have searched the globe to find the best materials. a. Keys (Japan) -- The brass for our keys is from Japan. Metallurgy tests show that our keys are as hard or harder than other major brands. The hardness of this alloy helps your saxophone stay in optimum adjustment. WRONG!!! This is a lie! Japan and Taiwan BOTH import steel and brass from the United States and Russia because their metal in general is very poor quality! b. Blue Steel Springs (Italy) -- Our quality Blue Steel Springs are imported from Italy. The blue tempered steel springs from Italy are good quality. c. Pads (Italy) -- Our pads are quality pads from Italy with a nickel sound resonator. In the Fall/Winter of 2002 we upgraded to treated pads that are not prone to stick. The German leather pads that are used by Keilwerth are much better quality than the Italian pads. The Italian pads are thinner and wear more easily. d. Brass (Taiwan) -- We were very particular when we chose the brass for our saxophones from Taiwan. It is annealed (heat treated) which increases its strength. The brass for the body and neck is annealed twice and the brass for the bell is annealed three times. Most importantly though, this particular brass allows for a "ring" in the sound that sets Cannonball Saxophones apart from their competition. This is also a load of CRAP!!! I am a mechanical engineer by trade. The carbon in the metal is what gives it strength, but high carbon steel like cast iron for example, doesn't have much malleability. In other words, it doesn't bend, it breaks. By annealing the brass, they make it SOFTER, not stronger. The brass has to be annealed to be workable, but as for Taiwanese brass being the best available? It's NOT!!! e. Mouthpieces (Germany & USA) -- We offer our dealers a choice between a jazz or a classical mouthpiece. Most of these are hard rubber, made in Germany and faced in the USA. Our baritone sax classical mouthpiece is plastic and made in the USA. Our baritone sax jazz mouthpiece (new) is hard rubber and made in USA. You can read more about our mouthpieces in FAQ page. I won't argue with this f. Neckstraps (France) -- Our Big Bell Global Series saxophones come standard with a quality neckstrap from France. Now THIS is something to brag about! Everyone knows the importance of a FRENCH neckstrap! They are simply the BEST available.....SO much better than a NEOTECH.......NOT! AND ABOVE ALL ELSE....The quality of TAIWANESE craftsmenship, although considerably better than the Chinese, is not on par with the quality of the German, French, American and Japanese horns. Anyway, I'm done with this post! Like I have always said. Regarding ANY saxophone new or used, PLAY IT BEFORE YOU BUY IT!!!

Too bad you're done with the post. You equate "hard" with "strong." The annealing of the metal is done AFTER the working of the metal is complete. It is done to re-align the molecular structure, and to make it more flexible. That IS what makes the brass resonate. Making the key brass harder is a different objective than making the body brass "harder" - you want a resonance in the body, not absolute rigedness. The annealing would improve the sound. It would also surprise me if other manufacturers didn't anneal the metal (I mean real ones, the keilwerths and yamaha, etc.) because the process of forming and shaping the metal in the manufacturing process would have its own effects on the molecular structure - and I would expect that annealing the whole body, as a whole simultaneously would be crucial to getting the body to have a resonance to the molecular structure in its final shape. Just a thought. Although I guess you'll maybe never read it to respond....

I understand what you're saying, but saxophones are produced from molds. The brass is annealed remove any impurities and then poured into the molds. Now, if the brass is to be annealed again, it should be done in the molds to prevent distortion from the annealing process. Brass melts at a lower temperature than some steel. The molds would have to be able to withstand the heat required to anneal the brass, which is around 1500 degrees. Bottom line, I don't buy Cannonball's sales pitch about their quality of metal or their annealing process! I think it's a bunch of BS! I'm smart enough to know better!

Jim says: "I understand what you're saying, but saxophones are produced from molds." Jeff asks: What saxophones do you mean? Do you mean that brass is "molten" then poured into molds? Or is brass annealed (heated to soften) and then forced somehow into the molds to take the shape of the neck, body and bell tubes? I'm confused. Please refer to my attached Selmer Factory URL to see how they do it and then maybe you can clarify what "you" mean. The use of molds is for "casting". Jim then says: "The brass is annealed remove any impurities and then poured into the molds." Jeff Asks: So by this statement you have answered my above question right? That brass is, lol, heated to the annealing point (or on your planet brasses melting point) "molten" it is then poured in its liquid like state into molds. Want to clarify or are you satisfied with your statement? Jim Continues with: "Now, if the brass is to be annealed again, it should be done in the molds to prevent distortion from the annealing process." Jeff asks: Jim what is the purpose of "annealing" again in your factory? are you trying to harden the brass by annealing ( I assume per your definition "re-melting"). Within the molds. what purpose would remelting serve. I'm very confused and would appreciate your kind professional clarifications. Jim: "Brass melts at a lower temperature than some steel. The molds would have to be able to withstand the heat required to anneal the brass, which is around 1500 degrees." Jeff: What is the construction of your molds then for sax components? are they of steel? How come the pictures (see url below) of the Selmer factory show now molds of any kind? Do other makers use molds then? At least you didnt say the exact melting point of brass was 1500 degrees and gave yourself a little room with "around 1500" degrees. Lets refer to the melting points of two types of brass, their annealing points (which btw is just BELOW the melting point on my planet). And lets review the definition of annealing (espectially the two types regarding brass- one for softening and one method for hardening, which would seem to explain the goal of past and likely present factory methods in use today). Here's a quote (and the appropriate attached url for your review) from a metalsmith regarding hardening of brass through heating (annealing). This is what I believe Selmer is also referring too in their discription: "Annealing Non-Ferrous (including BRASS) Material: Almost all non-ferrous metals are annealed BY HEATING SOMEWHERE JUST BELO THE MELTING POINT and then cooling in air or by quenching in water. Quenching in water is a convienience. Alpha brasses (64-99% copper) are annealed by heating to 700 to 1400°F (the hotter the softer) and can then be be quenched. Alpha-beta brasses (55 to 64% copper) are annealed at the same temperature and CAN BE HARDENED SLIGHTLY by quenching from the annealing temperature. The key word above is slightly. Cold working produces a much greater degree of hardness. The amount of hardening is so low my copper alloys book does not give specific data. If quenched from the low end of the annealing temperature there would be no disceernable difference."-End Quote The Reference page: www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm I didnt have a clear picture of how saxophones are made until having to take the Jim BS Challenge and find out for myself. Once again Jim thanks for helping me on my Journey. In a nutshell (read indepth the interesting article from Selmer Factor, replete with pictures) brass is supplied to the factory in thin sheets, just like sheet metal is prepared for metalshops. These sheets do not require annealing to soften them because, like sheet metal, this alloy is "softer" than iron/steel blanks. The brass is then stamped using a press and dyes forming the bells for altos and is hand beaten shaped into tenor, baritone and bass clainets (see the wonderful pics and text). blah-blah-blah...the article finally gets to the topic of annealing. In another post Jim describes annealing as a process of heating to remove impurities (annealing has many definitions apparently in Jims laboratory..sorry buddy dont mean to hate:-). Selmer first anneals (heats to the point JUST BELOW MELTING- otherwise they'd have to start all over again) to remove some lead impurities. Following the removal of impurities the annealing continues and this time the goal is to HARDEN (once again not MELT) the metal into its final product properties. Once again all this is backed up by Selmers actual factory specifications-see URL. They are then cut and gently beaten into the finished shapes. (no evidence of annealing yet). Thin sheets of brass are very malleable when attacked by hardened steel hammers and anvils. Jim's Classic Closing: "Bottom line, I don't buy Cannonball's sales pitch about their quality of metal or their annealing process! I think it's a bunch of BS! I'm smart enough to know better!" Jeff: What's not to buy? It is apparently the common standard practice in past and present (although I cant confirm this...I dont have time to look this up...time to visit my wife again for some Afternoon Delight) established and respected saxophone manufacturing companies. I dont get you my friend. I guess Selmer, yamaha, keilwerth, yani...after giving up on trying to "buy back" CB's current list of Impressive Endorsers perhaps more accomplished (or just luckier I guess as some of you Haters moan on about) muscians than most of us, decided to give all those ducats to continue to spread your misinformation in Cyberspace (no i really dont believe that). But what is truly a shame is that irresponsible comments and purported factual "opinions" expoused by so called self-professed experts has likely affected less experienced readers to the point that they now may have chosen to "Not Try Something" after being subjected to repetitive unsubstantiated BS. Many guys like Justanothersaxyguy repeatedly ask you Haters to explain yourselves in terms that they can analyze and give serious "respectful" consideration. Not one of you guys has stepped up to the plate. So far Jim has yet to impress me with any validity to his "opinions". Can it be any clearer how some of stubbornly "Cannot See The Forrest for the Trees?"...lol Now you haters...dont start spewing off a ton of reactive responses. Think for a minute and prepare a mature, reasonable objective reponse and then, pretty please?, try to back it up with a little something factual in the form of a verifiable literary opinion like my posts. Otherwise you're just talking out the wrong end of your an(us)nealed body tube...lol. Now here is Selmer Website. At least read this before responding. Thank you! Here is the website for the Selmer Factory complete with the ENTIRE production process with pictures to substantiate my description. The accompanying text cleary explains that annealing is used to HARDEN the brass...not, lol, melt it (as those are two entirely different properties of brass) www.dornpub.com/SaxjPDF/Selmer.pdf Saxyjeff

Jim thought the brass was poured into molds? For the body? REALLY? Wow. I missed that one. I thought he was off on some stuff, but this endless parade of I-told-you-so's leaves me thinking I have to set aside an evening and go back and reread the whole thread. (I think my ego is sticking out in here in a couple of spots, too. )

Well, heaven forbid we just leave this dead horse alone! I have some time to kill so here, let me clarify a few things! First of all Jeff, I never disrespected you or attacked you the way you did me. My apologies if you found my post offensive. After I reviewed the other posts that you had written before, I saw where you mentioned that you had sold your CB when you bought your Mark VI. Verywell. You bought one, had good luck with it and are considering a new one. I wish you good luck with whatever horn you buy. I have played a couple Cannonballs that I liked, and a couple that I did not. There seems to be inconsistancy in their quality, That is my only concern. Also as I said, I find a lot of CB's claims to be highly overstated and outright false; of course you could say the same thing for Selmer....probably 10 times over! First the statement about the molds. In the past, most parts were made using molds, including the bodies. As I said, I think many of CB's claims are highly exaggerated and outright false, such as their statement on how the brass used to make their bodies is annealed. What I said was that annealing the brass after already working the metal would cause distortion to the piece due to the heat required by the annealing process. Maybe they have found another way of annealing the metal, but I highly doubt it. The only way that I know of to prevent distortion would be to anneal the piece in the mold; referring to the way saxophones were made years ago. I think that today, the brass is annealed to specifications and formed into brass sheeting of the proper thickness, cut into patterns and formed into the body tubing. Here is an exert from a website I found which explains how the bodies of modern saxophones are made: This information pertains to the Yanagisawa saxophones and modern saxophones of today and can be found at: www.cybersax.com/graphics/tech/YaniTour/YaniTour_Page_1.html The saxophone body starts from milled brass sheet, which is cut into patterns that are formed into the tapered body tube with the aid of powerful presses and precision engineered tooling. After forming, the open seam must be silver soldered (welded, as the term relates to brass) to complete the air tight body tube. After the body tube is formed the tone holes are carefully located and drawn, from the inside out, in a process known as extrusion. Precision machinery locates the exact center for each tone hole before the extrusion process proceeds. This is an extremely critical phase of the manufacturing process because if the tone hole location is the slightest off its exact mark the intonation of the instrument will suffer. Tooled forms or molds keep both the inner and outer edges of the tone hole in perfect shape and attitude during the extrusion process. After extrusion, the tone hole rims are machined to exact height and leveled into plane so they match up with the keywork which is to come. By now I can sense that you all are developing a healthy respect and admiration for the sophisticated equipment and skilled craftsmanship required to build a quality saxophone ... Special processes are required to form bells, necks and bows. The bell flare is formed by a process called 'spinning' (center), where the tube spins at high speed while a craftsman applies pressure with a special tool to shape the flare and rolled edge. Visualize a potter at the wheel, gently nudging clay into a desired shape with the hand. The pressures and speeds required to shape brass are of course much different, but the techniques are similar. Right: tapered tubing used to form necks is first bent to the main curve, then pressed over a metal forming tool called a mandrel to complete the shape and press out the flattening needed to properly form the main bend without rupturing the soft tubing metal. Above (right), we see alto, tenor and bari necks, in silver and brass at various stages of forming and polishing. Note that even silver tubing comes from the mill in a dull gray state before it is polished. Critical steps in completing sax necks that are not shown are drilling the octave vent and compressing the neck shoulder to fit the sax body tenon. Yanagisawa makes necks (and bells) of both brass and sterling silver. Silver is even softer than brass and it is very malleable. The bell and neck forming processes discussed on the previous page demonstrate the malleability (a metallurgical term) of brass, which is an alloy containing copper and zinc. Malleability is a relative softness which allows a metal to be shaped, but also includes a characteristic ability to hold it's shape....under reasonable conditions of use. To better understand malleability think about other metals that have only one of the two important components of malleability. Lead is soft, but easily loses or changes shape. Iron stubbornly holds a shape, but due to its brittle nature cannot be worked into complex forms without first being melted and poured into molds. It is its malleability that caused pioneering craftsmen to select brass as the ideal material for forming musical instruments. These craftsmen understood that the ability to easily form and control shape was essential because it is shape and contour that dictate sound. As evidenced by the wonderful Grafton plastic saxophones made in England in the 1950's, shape is more a determinant of sound than is the material of which an instrument is made. Over the years, production wind instruments have successfully been made of a number of materials: wood, silver, brass, plastic and copper, among them. So now, what about CB's annealing clames? I think that CB'S brass is no different than anyone elses. In fact, I would highly surmise that the same brass used to make CB's is used to make other saxophones as well. It's all a bunch of hype. CB states that they have searched the globe for the best materials possible. Japan is a country known for limited natural resources and poor quality metals. Japanese metals have a lot of impurities. Their steel in particular. I just find it rather strange that CB searched the world over and found their best metal for their keys in Japan, as opposed to Switzerland, Italy, the United States, or Russia which all have considerably better metal than Japan. Blue steel springs? Sure, they're made of cobalt steel. They're very hard. Wherever they're made, Taiwan, USA, Italy, this is the best steel you can use for such an application. That's what most reputable companies use today. The Italian leather pads? Well, having played CB's and worked on them, I've found that their pads are very soft, and the leather somewhat thin in comparison to other pads, and the Keilwerth pads in particular are the highest quality I've found. They're a thicker leather. They're also waterproof! Selmer's pads are also better quality than Cannonballs. As for my comment about the French neckstrap, I think this is kind of a silly claim. What difference does the quality of the neckstrap make if the horn is poor quality? And I'm not saying that CB's are poor quality, but of all the things to brag about in a horn, they brag about their neckstrap? That just seems silly to me! Especially since most people probably already have a nice Neotech or something. Tevis....keep your straps and put a little more quality into your HORNS!!! For all of you who continue to support CB, I admire you and respect your opinions. Through the support of loyal customers like you, CB may grow to be the best saxophones available on the market. I do think they have made tremendous strides in recent years, but quality control is definately an issue that this company needs to address.

justanothersaxguy, you might want to re-read your post here also. You said that the steel was annealed after working the metal to relieve stress. I mearly stated why this was unlikely due to the distortion to the shape that would be caused by annealing the metal. As I said, I play and collect mostly vintage instruments, and most vintage instruments WERE made using molds. Once again, you have taken my words out of context. I never claimed to have ALL the answers here, but I know enough to know when Cannonball is dishing out a line of CRAP!

but cannonball doesn't anneal the metal to pour it into molds, Jim.

HUH? Could you rephrase that? And, yes, the metal is annealed after it is shaped.

Oh, yeah. Here it is right here. "the brass is annealed to remove any impurities and then poured into molds." A strong ego is a terrible thing to waste

I said: "I understand what you're saying, but saxophones are produced from molds." I meant IF saxophones are produced from molds, the way they were years ago. Today, most saxophones are made from sheet brass that is cut into patterns and formed into the body shapes using hydraulic presses. I'm not sure how many parts today are made using molds. See my other posts as to why I think CB's claim about the annealment of their brass is false.

LMAO....You know why these threads never die? I think its because we all feel compelled to have the last word...ad infinitum. Jim your anger only brings out more of the same of what the title of my sub-thread points do. Brother no doubt you are probably one hell of a blues player. All your notes your posting in the column are heavily flated. I'm really sorry but you stepped in it again, and shame on you boyo. You know guys, my 9 year old spent all week taking placement tests. He placed 98% in the nation for his age group in reading and comprehension. They say he's reading at the 7th grade level. Studies indicate the average American exiting High School (Sorry I dont have the exact reference but you can search for it) is conversant at about the 8th grade level. I dont know what level you're at Jim, et al, but you clearly are not comprehending my posts (all two of them) very well. So now I gots to go through your last post line by line to address your shortsightedness...that is if you're still reading this post. Another disclaimor from me: I'm a big nut about sworsmithing and edged weapons but I AM NOT A SWORDSMITH NOR A BLACKSMITH NOR A SMITHY OF ANY KIND. This really applies for the later rebuttals when we get to the "ringing" of the Horns...stay tuned. To paraphrase your post: 1) "Jeff says "Like I said this started out as a thread from a kid asking for some advice about CB's and I expect he meant from people who were happy with them." BUT READ THIS!!! "I currently don't own any but will soon after my Series III Tenor and Mk VI Soprano clear Ebay." How do you know how well they REALLY hold up if you yourself do not own one, and I seriously doubt your are qualified enough as a repair tech to notice the flaws in Cannonball craftsmenship." says Jimbo. Saxyjeff Response: As I previously stated for all in this thread , I'm not a paid endorser of CB. I DO NOT currently own a CB horn. However I also told this thread that at least I DID OWN a CB Tenor 5 years ago. I played the hell out of it for 2 years and sold it to my friend who plays the hell out of it and it looks and sounds nearly equal to the fine Series III Selmer I'm selling right now on Ebay. I HAVE BEEN an owner and admirer of the CB instruments for as many years. I also owned a CB silver plated alto that I played for 4 years. I also own a Martin Committee II that I bought from SaxQuest and last year I sold the alto when I bought Pauls incredible Selmer BA (i'll never sell this nor my VI tenor). So...Jim I dont understand your point. I'm further concerned because if you cannot comprehend and retain something this "fresh"...how am I to seriously consider the objective credibility of any of your opinions. You cant even get my posts straight. Regarding my credentials as repair tech...I dont remember saying I was. Speaking as a previous owner of two older pro versions of CB saxophones I can say that those horns, and all the horns of colleagues who have bought/play them (and dont forget to consider the long list of Recording Artists I included in Post #2 who own them and use them daily...they do count dont they Jim?)..all horns I HAVE PERSONALLY been introduced to played well. They did not all play great. Mine were good but as forerunners not as good as the fine instruments coming out now. Anyway My Two years on Tenor and 4 yrs on Alto CB kinda put me ahead of you Jim in the personal experience dept.... 2) "I feel that a lot of Cannonball's claims are highly overstated. It's a million dollar sales pitch for an $1800 horn!"-Jim Connsaxman personal quote 5/1/05...You heard it hear folks... Saxyjeff Response: Once again Jim this your own personal conjecture. Of course you then copy and paste CB's entire feature list and then once again, in great Jim Tradition, add your personal conjecture without offering any relevant references af any peer or non-peer reviewed literature to support your "personal opinions". Maybe Sheryl or Tevis would like to come back online and address their marketing program. Sounds pretty grassroots to me. I have yet to see any CB marketing...it's all pretty much word of mouth by dealors and player to player. But by all means...hang on to your demons. 3) Jim Says: "Let me explain what I mean about the quality of Cannonballs. This is right from their website. Big Bell Global Series was given its name partly because we have searched the globe to find the best materials. Quoting CB: "a. Keys (Japan) -- The brass for our keys is from Japan. Metallurgy tests show that our keys are as hard or harder than other major brands. The hardness of this alloy helps your saxophone stay in optimum adjustment." Jim timidly adds :): "WRONG!!! This is a lie! Japan and Taiwan BOTH import steel and brass from the United States and Russia because their metal in general is very poor quality! "... Saxyjeff Response: So Jim...you prefaced this part by saying "let me explain why" and then, once again you most disappointingly did not. Why Jim is it a lie? Based on what information are you stating this? Do you have insider information? Have you copies of their studies that show that they are indeed "lying" about this statement? Why is it so hard to believe? Because you are a mechanical engineer are you automatically also an geological expert in world mineral deposits and mining production levels? How about just considering your opinions pertaining to just JAPAN and TAIWAN? What studies are you referring to? Once again statements without support. I'm a doctor and my science background is every bit as indepth as yours. As a fellow colleague of the "hard" sciences did your professors teach you from a textbook of facts and references or just idle conjecture like you are depositing in this forum? (and in your diaper) Lets look at this from another point of view. Why does Japan and Taiwan import so much raw material (of whatever quality). My reference for brass composition: www.scottecatalog.com/glossary.nsf/0/ea389096db2056b5852568a9005fe840?OpenDocument Hey Engineer. Is brass anelement or a compound? Brass is a mixture of Copper and Zinc. Brass alloys can be harder or softer depending on the ratios of one element to the other and also on the addition of any other elements that might be added affect its physical properties, performance, color...etc. I dont know who makes the brass for CB keys (though I'm sure you and your crystal ball know) however why couldnt some brainiac (and Taiwan and Japan have a few) have already figured out a FORMULA (or even created a custom recipe) for CB's particular needs? They (CB) may be lying out their teeth....but where is your hard proof?? Will you please share it with us so that we can then hold those clever Lying Liars Accountable? Just because Asia imports raw materials from the rest of the world for refabircation into just about everything the rest of the world consumes (cause they do it better, faster, cheaper and with less employee bitching) doesnt mean they only produce and export crap. These landlocked geographically small countries only have so much raw material. Stuff has been made in Japan and Taiwan since I was born 42 years ago. Of COURSE they have to import. Where do you think we get the raw materials for our tires? Arizona? What do you really think Viet Nam was all about. lol...Communists? Crappy Brass? OUTSOURCING is the term used for essentially farming out to other companies to provide you with services and/or products that are created/performed to your EXACT specifications. This is done to insure the highest quality of services and product since it is unlikely that a craftsman is an equally skilled jack of all trades. Here's some definitions of Brass and that alloys's elements: Def of Alloy: A mixture of two or more metals such as bronze which is made of copper and tin. Alloys are not compounds but mixtures of metals disolved into each other which crystalize into seperate crystals on solidifying. Alloys often have properties much different than their constituants. Greater strength, hardness or different melting point. Density is almost exactly the sum of the ratio of the densities but not quite. Almost all metals and alloys have small amounts of "trace elements" that are impurities but sometimes contribute to the alloy's properties. Reference Page: www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm Here is the Def of the Element Copper: copper Element number 29, symbol Cu, a metal (Latin, cuprum). A red ductile metal occasionaly found in its native state. Copper is an excelent conductor of heat and electricity only second to silver in electrical conductivity. Copper is the primary metal in the alloys brass, bronze and monel. In small amounts copper is used to make aluminium, silver and gold harder. As small amount ads corrosion resistance to steel. American pennies, before 1983 were actually bronze, not copper. Copper is too soft and would wear very rapidly. New American pennies are zinc with a copper coating. Average density of copper, 8.96 g/cm3, .3237 lbs/cuin, 559.35 lbs/cuft Reference page:www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm Definition of Zinc: zinc Element number 30, symbol Zn, a metal (German, Zink). A bluish white ductile metal known to the ancients in brass but was not produced seperately until the 18th century. Zinc is the secondary metal in the alloy brass, naval brass, alloy C28000 being 60% copper 39.2% zinc ans 2% tin. Zinc is used to make hard varieties of aluminium and aluminium is used to make light strong zinc casting alloys. The United States penny has been made out of copper clad zinc since 1983. Average density of zinc, 7.133 g/cm3, .2577 lbs/cuin, 445.30 lbs/cuft Los Alamos National Laboratory periodic table entry zinc Reference Page: www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm Now regarding the mysterious "Ringing of The Horn". I own several swords of varying alloy composition, tempering and design. The heat treating processes that makes the metal of these horns "harder" is done possibly (notice how I say possibly vs absolutely like some folks who know more than me) make them less prone to dings and dents. It also makes the metal respond and vibrate differently resulting in different harmonics and likely (not absolutely my critics) MAY result in the way the instrument speaks throughout the entire range as well. Clearly the analogy of the ringing sound of steel swords on each other or shields, or merely from drawing the blade from the sheath/scabbard (highly overdone on the big screen anyway) to the resonance of these tempered metalled horns is what they are getting at with there remark..That is my OPINION anyway and may not be factual. However this may entirely be an exagerration by CB's Marketing Copy person than an actual effect that is manifest in their horns. Then Again...maybe they mean exactly that. Maybe we can get CB to show us an actual video of the clashing of their horns against each other or shields and record the harmonics issued forth from those elemental interactions. Perhaps Jim has already tested this in his Dexter's Laboratory already with some of his CB overnite sleepovers. We may never know. CB can you help us out here please? Here are some interesting URLs to some actual blade smiths in some very remote parts of the world turning out some really crappy products with crappy resources: www.himalayan-imports.com www.himalayan-imports.comkhukuri-history.html www.himalayan-imports.comkami.html www.himalayan-imports.comfaq/Ceremony.htm Lets Move On Shall We? 3) CB Claims: "b. Blue Steel Springs (Italy) -- Our quality Blue Steel Springs are imported from Italy." Jim Agrees: "The blue tempered steel springs from Italy are good quality." Saxyjeff Response: Why? What is so good about those Italian Springs? Who told YOU? Who is the Manufacturer? Or perhaps you did some personal analysis in your home lab when you took your sample CB horns home? Are these the same guys who specialize in Blue Springs that Selmer, Yamaha, Yani and other high end sax manufacturers rely on? Please enlighten me. Just because you agree with them doesn't make your comments any more credible than when you disagree with them. 4) CB says: "c. Pads (Italy) -- Our pads are quality pads from Italy with a nickel sound resonator. In the Fall/Winter of 2002 we upgraded to treated pads that are not prone to stick." Jim Continues: "The German leather pads that are used by Keilwerth are much better quality than the Italian pads. The Italian pads are thinner and wear more easily." Saxyjeff Response: Hmmmmmm....Who is the company that Keilwerth uses for their pads? Does Keilwerth make their own? Do they come from some remote part of Germany or where? What Italian company does CB get their pads from? For that matter how many companies in Italy make saxophone pads at all? How do you know they are thinnerand wear easier? Where is the scientific data??? Why are you hiding this info from us Herr Engineer? lol...Did you analyze these at home too? where is your personal and/or published data? Would you please post it for us/me so that I can make an informed decision? At least let CB know where they are weak so that maybe you can aid them in their efforts to make a better quality product since you are such an expert on their quality. 5) CB Claims: "d. Brass (Taiwan) -- We were very particular when we chose the brass for our saxophones from Taiwan. It is annealed (heat treated) which increases its strength. The brass for the body and neck is annealed twice and the brass for the bell is annealed three times. Most importantly though, this particular brass allows for a "ring" in the sound that sets Cannonball Saxophones apart from their competition." Engineer Metallurgist Professional Blues Flated 5th Player Jim continues: "This is also a load of CRAP!!! I am a mechanical engineer by trade. The carbon in the metal is what gives it strength, but high carbon steel like cast iron for example, doesn't have much malleability. In other words, it doesn't bend, it breaks. By annealing the brass, they make it SOFTER, not stronger. The brass has to be annealed to be workable, but as for Taiwanese brass being the best available? It's NOT!!!"---Emphasis Jim. Saxyjeff Responds: Jim, Jim, Jim there certainly is a load of crap and I think you really need to change your diaper. When is the last time you held a steel sax? I never have. Carbon isn't usually a component of brass either. But you're right about annealing, it can make brass weaker. But guess what? Its also part of the process of making brass HARDER TOO....read-on oh Skeptical One... Here's a definition of annealing of steel: Definition: Heating steel to, and holding at a suitable temperature, followed by relatively slow cooling. The purpose of annealing may be to remove stresses, to soften the steel, to improve machinability, to improve cold working properties, to obtain a desired structure. The annealing process usually involves allowing the steel to cool slowly in the furnace. Reference: metals.about.com/library/bldef-Annealing.htm Another reference states: Annealing is the softening of metal by heat treatment. Ferrous metals are annealed by heating to just above the A3 point (a point above non-magnetic that varies with the carbon content), and then cooling slowly. For common carbon steels the cooling can be done in dry ashes, lime powder or vermiculite. For high carbon and alloy steels annealing requires cooling in a furnace that has temperature controls so that the rate of cooling is no more than ~20°F/hr. Non-ferrous metals such as aluminium, BRASS, copper and silver are annealed by heating to a low red and quenching in water (the opposite of steel). Reference page:www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm Using heat can indeed soften metal so that it can be more readily worked into desired shapes. Heat can also be used to temper or harden metal. The description of heating to harden a metal to improve resonance, durability and to get that"ringing" effect is really not the definition of annealing regarding steel but may be for brass. Lets look further at some opinions and definitions from some people that live in that world: definition of tempering: tempering Verb, the adjustment of temper. In ferrous metalurgy tempering is the reheating of steel to some temperature below the hardening temperature after hardening in order to reduce the brittleness which also reduces the hardness. The tempering range for steel is from 350°F (177°C) to as high as 1350°F (732°C). It is recommended to temper almost all ferrous metals after hardening. See heat treating. In non-ferrous metals (such as BRASS) the temper (hardness) is adjusted by heat treating, aging or work hardening. See references on specific metals for methods. Saxyjeff adds- "Although this refers to steel this verb applies to the tempering process all metals when undergoing this type of process". Reference page:www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm Here's a quote from a metalsmith regarding hardening of brass through heating (annealing). This is what I believe CB is referring too in their discription: Annealing Non-Ferrous (including BRASS) Material: Almost all non-ferrous metals are annealed by heating to somewhere just below the melting point and then cooling in air or by quenching in water. Quenching in water is a convienience. Alpha brasses (64-99% copper) are annealed by heating to 700 to 1400°F (the hotter the softer) and can then be be quenched. Alpha-beta brasses (55 to 64% copper) are annealed at the same temperature and can be hardened slightly by quenching from the annealing temperature. The key word above is slightly. Cold working produces a much greater degree of hardness. The amount of hardening is so low my copper alloys book does not give specific data. If quenched from the low end of the annealing temperature there would be no disceernable difference. Common brazing alloy is: Cu 56 - 60% Sn 0.8 - 1.0 Fe .25 - 1.20 Al, Si, Mg, Pb trace (no greater than 0.1% each) Zn balance Reference page: www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/glos_faq_index.htm Can We Move On Now Please? 6) CB Claims: "e. Mouthpieces (Germany & USA) -- We offer our dealers a choice between a jazz or a classical mouthpiece. Most of these are hard rubber, made in Germany and faced in the USA. Our baritone sax classical mouthpiece is plastic and made in the USA. Our baritone sax jazz mouthpiece (new) is hard rubber and made in USA. You can read more about our mouthpieces in FAQ page. Jim Says: "I won't argue with this" Saxyjeff Responds: Thank God!!! 7) CB Says: " f. Neckstraps (France) -- Our Big Bell Global Series saxophones come standard with a quality neckstrap from France." Jim Just goes Ballistic (Diaper Rash): "Now THIS is something to brag about! Everyone knows the importance of a FRENCH neckstrap! They are simply the BEST available.....SO much better than a NEOTECH.......NOT!" Saxyjeff Responds some more: Gee...is this what happens when cut someone a little slack in the mouthpiece section? Dammit CB quit giving away free mouthpieces and neckstraps you Jerks!!! :) And now the 8th and Final Commandment: 8) Just Jim now, Blowing Gideon's Trumpet: "AND ABOVE ALL ELSE....The quality of TAIWANESE craftsmenship, although considerably better than the Chinese, is not on par with the quality of the German, French, American and Japanese horns." IS MOSES IN THE HOUSE????!!!! Saxyjeff Respose: Do I really need too? Famous Last Words(?) "Anyway, I'm done with this post! Like I have always said. Regarding ANY saxophone new or used, PLAY IT BEFORE YOU BUY IT!!!" Saxyjeff Respons: This the GREATEST STATEMENT YOU'VE STATED IN ALLLLLLLLL OF THIS THREAD...I cant agree with you more!!! Saxyjeff Closes: Look People...I know its fun to watch trivial daytive drama crap like Maury Povich, Rikki Lake...CNBC. But hey, cmon now. If you're going to report opinions based on personal bias then just MAKE IT CLEAR that its your opinion and dont hide behind your CyberSpace Persona. You hold yourself to a higher standard then be prepared to defend your position when you make Absolute Statements of (Unsubstantiated) Facts. There is no shame in having an opinion(s) and sharing them. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on all things. But for us to make claims based on "Invisible Evidence" then we arent necessarily "stupid"....but we certainly may be "Silly". Ignorance is really not "Bliss". I hope this post can now move in a different direction. I'm not interested in flaming anyone but I have clearly responded without meaning to directly offend anyone. However indirect offensive comments have been made such that opinions have been used in place of fact...My level of education and continuing education as a lifetime student of life and the arts just cannot abide that. Once again refer to this page and checkout what these Cats have to say: www.cannonballmusic.com/artists.php Peace to all, and once again, thank you Sheryl and Tevis. Jeffery Wood

JESUS!!!! Can you possibly ramble on any more about it? I mean, for crying out loud! Why don't you just post their whole flippin' web page on here! I have a college degree, and I assure you, my reading and comprehensive skills are college level, but with your posts being as LONG as they are, and as many times as you contradict yourself, I have gotten LOST AND CONFUSED! You want to twist my words and carry on, hell bent on having the last word, but your disrespect towards me is uncalled for. I could care less what other people think of CB! If you love them GREAT! If you hate them, GREAT! but aren't we entitled to our own opinions? I have never owned a Cannonball, but I have played several of them. I can distinguish between a high quality instrument and a mediocre intermediate instrument. As I've said, the Cannonballs have gotten better, but you seem to think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I disagree. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but when you start attacking me, I think you're taking it a little too far. I'll conclude my post by saying that in the time it took you to write all that, I was probably getting laid! And now. I am going to bed, and if you want to further dispute what I have said, BECAUSE YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE THE LAST WORD, then by all means, HAVE AT IT!!! AS I HAVE SAID MANY TIMES.....PLAY A SAXOPHONE BEFORE YOU BUY IT!!! If you like CB, BUY IT!!! If you don't.....check out other horns. This has gone far beyond debate and now it's personal! You are just one of many examples as to how someone with a little knowledge, strong opinions, and high speed internet access can be dangerous!

Gee Jim, Personal? Hardly. Go back and read the tone of your post I responded to....all those Exclamations are your's my friend. And you prefaced the whole thing by misquoting me. Every word you wrote was carefully outlined to prevent confusion as I rebutted each statement. Sometimes its a bitter pill to swallow when closeminded opinionists are confronted by someone who has the ability to logically challenge there continued inane statements. As I said in my first posting...I am not an paid shill or otherwise of the CB company. I will point out BS when I encounter it after all reasonable attempts to elicit a satisfactory explanation have failed. So many of you negative posters are merely here to throw around your unfounded comments and you, Jim, are probably the most intelligent, and probably musically talented, of them all. You should know better and be more open. Yeah I heard whe you begrudgingly through CB a few bones. But brother I gave you clear opportunity to state your facts and to buttress them with clear concise facts other than your "personal" rhetoric. All you can do is hide behind your embarassment and accuse me of attacking you personally. Sorry buddy. There never has been a "debate" from your end. I at least offered the rudiments of "references" for my rebuttals to your continued, heated inappropriate commentary. Those exact same comments would be legitimate, without having to change your position, if you would just buttress your hyperbole with some facts.... Personal? Not hardly. BTW...when do you get to decide when a debate is over? when you can no longer stand toe-to-toe? Damn you've had no problem repeatedly being a know it all regarding CB technology, history and "secret" innerworkings for a couple of years now on this thread alone. If you dont like the food being served in this cafeteria from now on then go eat somewhere else. You keep coming back to me..I am only responding to you since my initial GENERIC postings to the thread. Postings geared towards education about the company and its product and have offered choices for others to seek knowledge outside of this narrowminded thread. My friend I have respect for you. You are an accomplished musician, technician, historian (not about CB:) and probably a great humanitarian. If you cant defend yourself without logic and research vs. bs then retire yourself, again. I'm sorry you felt I was attacking you...I clearly, painstakingly addressed your vehement last posting, addressing me btw, in a matter and a fashion that dissected it entirely. I rebutted your comments and supported my "opinions" with reasoning and data other than just my "opinion"...You had every opportunity to respond but it is apparent you cant...and know you are embarrassed and pissed. Hey....to all you who post in this thread from now on...back your opinions up with "facts" not BS. At least what you might think are the facts. Then at least we can continue to have intelligent dialogue on our continued disagreements and openly discuss them as mature adults. You young'ns that haven't learned respect I'll warn you I have no patience for you and might be prone to ignoring you. Jim I expect more from a guy like you because you should know better. When other guys (other than myself) ask you for your "reasons for your opinions" please respect them and give it some real thought and at least be able to cut and paste something to help them understand. Your refusal to respect their requests, and the other negative mongers as well, serve only to make you less credible. Anyway if you're not here to share more than your BS opinion then why are you in here anyway. Yeah I wrote a couple of long posts....All my verbage still hasn't added up to the sum total of all your dubious posts my friends. The BS stops now. Lets all try to have some stimulating conversation for a change or STFU, ok? I'm sorry about the diaper jokes Jim..but I couldnt resist. I'm looking forward to all the exciting feedback I'm sure tomorrow will bring..lol God I hope you immature guys at least try to think before you start writing a bunch of quick emotional posts....Just try to wait for 10 mins and think about this...and re-read my other posts over and over before reacting. You might just learn something if you allow yourself. Goodnite! Jeff

have you gone to bed yet?

Hey, people, can't we.... uh.... can't we all j - ju- just g-get along?

but you said you last response was your last one....

You have obviously done your homework and that's good, but you are being pretty harsh. There are probably many, highly qualified people with enough experience to post their opinion's here. Anyone who has ever even tested a CB is qualified to give their opinions, whether they are 5th graders or pros. Also, you don't have to be famous or even be known to be considered a pro. Jim , as far as i'm concerned is a very reliable source of information and is more than qualified to state his opinion with more than a little conviction. I understand your argument, but you don't need to sound so harsh. I am not sure how long you've been a member of this site but i don't think i've ever seen your posts, and as far as i'm concerned, i would take jim's advice over yours. Also, everyone is a "Real Musician" Over and out.

I would go after any brand that i didn't think was up to par. For instance, i am not a fan of selmer. The prices suck big time and i don't like the darker tone i get with those horns. I prefer the brighter tone of a yamaha

Justanothersaxguy-I was writing the post you see under you when i heard that a new post was posted(yours) The message under you is not against you, it is for Saxyjeff(is that the right name?) And saxy jeff- i know it sounds harsh, My top blew . i reread it and it did sound evil so i'm sorry for that, but your posts just seemed sort of rude. Sorry

I know you didn't direct that at me, but I feel where his edge is coming from (though I think you are right; it's not good to overreact - even if you feel your "opponent" in an arguement has been doing so with great regularity). Maybe YOU can answer (honestly) why you think it is that a Keilwerth fan never calls Selmer crap; a Yani fan never calls a Keilwerth crap, etc, etc. They will say they prefer theirs to the other, yet respect the other brand as "equally worthy - just not personally preferred." But they dump on Cannonball. I don't ever hear a Cannonball owner calling the others crap. WHY IS THAT SUCH A ONE-WAY STREET? (I do again say I feel this is a psychological phenomenon, much akin to the Kenny G bashing that goes on when he seems to be the sax player all other sax players either love or love to hate.) WHY IS CANNONBALL BASHING SUCH A ONE WAY STREET? The defenders are just screaming up and down that Cannonball deserves an honest unbiased chance. Why is that so hard to do?

OK. Now I have to respond to MY OWN POST. This IS getting really bad. I just went back and re-read what you said, that I reacted to, and you knocked Selmer. SEE? This tells me that a) people DO knock the other big names, and b) sometimes I don't really listen, either. I once heard a theologian, named Donald Gray Barnhouse, once say that, "most people, when they say they are thinking, are really only re-arranging their prejudices." I guess we're all guilty. I just hope that people will come around to the possibility that Cannonball is just as valid, just as legitimate as the others. I hope I can stop myself from posting here on this thread again. There. Now someone provoke me. I dare you.....

I think i can help with your question. I'm not sure if CB is newer than the other companies, but that can be a reason. People might feel safer with the longer running brand than with a newer co. It could be as much as the look , feel, or sound that they don't feel comfortable with and it really can be a trick of the mind. Other musicians might be so used to a certain brand that they don't test others and firmly believe that that particular brand is the best. Of course the true reason mght not ever be known

I just remembered what i was going to say. I think(If CB is a newer brand) That they just need to establish themselves firmly and convince people that they aren't going away. Then people might think that they aren't horrible horns because the co. was strong enough to stick around

After reading through some of these posts the only conclusion that I can reach is, some people have WAY TOO MUCH TIME on their hands! Regards, GG

No kidding GG! I just read saxman1919's post, and basically he said EVERYTHING I have felt and tried to express about Cannonball saxophones. Their quality is very inconsistant. I have played Cannonball horns that sounded and played really good, and others that had intonation problems, and other issues. I have seen them nearly brand new with warped, unlevel tone holes, and tone holes that were rough and not properly filed. The overall quality still has plenty of room for improvement. Yes, the same could be said for some of the Selmer horns I have seen, and Yamahas, although I do think their quality control is at least a little better than Cannonball at the moment; though Selmer in particular seems to be slipping. I test a variety of different horns, and when I test them, I don't just play them for a few minutes! I usually put about 5 hours on the horn, try a few different mouthpiece set-ups and maybe even make a few adjustments. I am experienced enough as a player and a tech to recognize things like the unlevel tone holes, and improper key height adjustment, and other issues I have seen with the Cannonballs. I think many of Cannonball's claims about their Big Bell Global Series are highly exaggerated and outright false! I would be happy to share with you WHY in more detail, but unlike Jeff, I have a life and other things to do and none of you probably care anyways right? But if any of you REALLY want to know, email me, and I will get back to you. No matter what make of saxophone you buy; try it first if at all possible and if you order it online or by mail and you can't try it first, make sure they have a return policy and you can send it back if you're unhappy. ESPECIALLY if you're buying a USED or a VINTAGE horn, make sure it's complete and if at all possible, PLAY IT FIRST!

Jim and other readers, we do anneal the metal in our horns, we do get our brass for keys from Japan, we are particular about the alloy we use, we have chosen it carefully, and it is from Taiwan. A higher copper content helps with ring, but as someone stated 100% copper is too soft, and we don't prefer the sound anyway. Yes, we have experimented with 100%copper, as well as many different alloys.. If anyone were to find an unlevel tone hole or any other problem, it should be reported immediately to their dealer. Quality control is extremely important to us. We want to go the extra mile to be sure customers are happy. I don't recall bragging about the French neck strap, just stating that it is part of the package. If a player wants another kind of neckstrap, they're free to go purchase it. Our horns are making a mark in Tokyo and if you know the culture there, you know that quality is of the utmost importance.. We will easily sell 6000 saxophones this year, and we actually have very few complaints. The complaints we have, we take seriously and try constantly to improve. We have increased our production significantly, purchased a 12,000 sq. ft bldg. here in Utah to give us more room, and are still having trouble keeping up with demand. It's not uncommon to have several models backordered for 2 months. I'll be going to Taiwan in a few weeks and when I get back I'll give a detailed explanation of our annealing process since it's been one of the causes of debate. I hope you will consider Cannonball as one of your choices. Sheryl Laukat, CEO Cannonball

You sounded so nice. If you're really who you say you are that is amazing. Don't you have to deal with alot of people and their complaints on a regular basis? Anyhow, i figured that when i need a new instrument again, i will test the CB. The power of words people. FYI: I'm just saying, if you ever get complaints about your customer service department, try to fix it. I hate companies that don't care about the customer(I'm stating an overall fact, not pointimg your co. out). There are so many companies that don't care. The company's customer service always plays a big factor in whether or not i will stick/use that company. Anybody else agree?

Yeah, it's really her - Mrs. Cannonball herself. And she's very nice. They're very real people (well, firsthand, I can only speak about her, since I've never spoken to Tevis. But I've spoken to Sheryl before, and she's very professional, and courteous. They do take things seriously.) I bet she'll even know almost as much about how Cannonball saxophones are annealed as Jim the Con man does.

Dear Mrs. Cannonball, I think it says a lot that someone as busy as I'm sure you are would take the time to respond to a post such as this. That really means a lot. I restore mostly vintage horns, Conn and Buescher in particular. I have played several Cannonball saxophones and although I am not completely sold on your product, I must say that the last 2 models I played really did impress me. A member on another post was looking for a jazz saxophone, and I did mention Cannonball as one that he/she should check into. The first experience I had with Cannonball was with a used Knight alto that came into a friend's music store. The saxophone was about 4 years old at the time, and hadn't been played very much. I checked over the saxophone and played it a little in the store. This was my first experience with a Cannonball saxophone. It seemed to play fairly well in the store. I took the sax for the weekend and used it on a jazz gig that I played. I tried a few different mouthpiece combinations, and I had problems with the horn's intonation, and I couldn't get a sound that I really liked. The sax was bright, and the projection and resonation was very good, but I thought the sax sounded a little thin. After playing the sax for a few hours, I decided that Cannonball, like so many other more modern saxes I have tried, just wasn't for me. I'm a very hard person to please when it comes to sound. Around the middle part of December after reeding this post, a person had suggested that I try one of the new Big Bell Global Series saxophones, and I really wanted to try a Cannonball tenor. A friend of mine who is an excellent tenor player was playing a Cannonball tenor; Iforget what model you call it; the Raven I think it was, while his Mark VI was being repaired. I offered to swap horns with him for the night and let him take my mint King Super 20, while I played the Cannonball. I really liked this horn. With the Otto Link Super Tone Master, it sounded really good, and played very easy. It was also very bright, and LOUD. It just felt; I don't want to say cheap, but, as if something was missing. Maybe it was just not what I am used to. Me and my Conn 10M, which I have been playing since I was 10 years old have really bonded over the years. My most recent experience with Cannonball came with another alto which I recently tried that was less than a month old when I had the pleasure of testing it. If you were to blindfold me and tell me I was listening to a King Silversonic, I would have believed you! It sounded fantastic with an Otto Link Tone Edge mouthpiece. I played the horn for hours and couldn't put it down. It was considerably better than the other Cannonball saxophones I have tried. I was very pleased, but still not completely sold. I think the quality of Taiwanese craftsmenship has gotten considerably better in recent years. For many years, they lacked the resources and technology to compete with products made in Germany, The United States and other parts of Europe. Now, this is not the case. I do question the quality of Asian metals though. Working in the automotive industry, I don't work with a lot of brass, but it just seems odd that a country known for having poor metals and limited natural resources is where you found your best brass. I'm a little unsure about the annealment process, but I'm starting to get the idea here, based on information I have read. My question was; how is the metal annealed after being formed into a saxophone body without distortion, as justanothersaxguy had suggested. I think the answer is, and please correct me if I am wrong, the brass is annealed before it is milled, and then annealed again before it is cut into the patterns and formed into a saxophone body. This would make much more sense. I do think quality control is one issue that Cannonball needs to address a little closer. As I said, I have seen a couple horns that had issues with their tone holes. On one model the toneholes were warped. The store I mentioned is not a Cannonball dealer, and we advised the customer to contact Cannonball for service since the horn was only a couple years old. I really don't know what the end result was, but I trust that if this customer contacted you, it was taken care of. The other problem I found concerning the tone holes was that a couple of the tone holes were very sharp, and not properly filed and de-burred. Finally, I think that you're well on your way to making some of the best saxophones on the market. I would be a little more favorable towards Cannonball if you were making them in Utah instead of Taiwan, but, I also understand your need to offer your product at a competitive price. Jim

I bet she'll even know almost as much about how Cannonball saxophones are annealed as Jim the Con man does. ----------------------------- OOPS. Must have been a typo - as I meant to sayJim the Conn man. (two n's instead of one.) Sorry about that.....

I didn't ctach that. I think you should've left it and see if he had noticed. LOL

OK. I confess. I did it on purpose. It was supposed to look like a freudian slip. Ya know, I'd swear it was a different Jim that wrote that post yesterday to Sheryl......

Same Jim, same opinions. Unfortunately through your arrogance, you missed my point the first time around. I won't hold it against you. I've been doing a little more research on Cannonball and the annealment of brass for my own personal knowledge, and what I have learned is quite interesting. I still have some doubts about a few of Cannonball's claims, but I will keep them to myself for the time being. As I said in my response to Sheryl, I am very impressed that she would take the time to respond to this forum, and to me, that says a lot about Cannonball's commitment to quality. I think they're on the right track to having one of the best saxophones available. I do think quality control has room for improvment. I would rather pay a little more for a Cannonball made in the USA, than buy one made in Taiwan.

i see. I stand corrected, and enlightened.

Hey All, not to revive a dead horse, but I tried a tenor from these folks today. It played fairly well. I agree with jim that I'd rather have it made in the US instead of taiwan, but I thought it was a decent playing horn. Tested it out with an otto link super tone master and vandoren zz 3 reeds. I might think of this company when it comes time to replace my True Tone

No. Go ahead. Revive it. Really. I was getting a little disappointed with the absence of new revisionist history about the manufacturing techniques of saxophones (you know, like, the brass poured into molds - that kind of stuff). Still waiting to hear from Sheryl when she comes back - she was going to tell us about the annealing process used on their sax bodies. I expect it will be interesting stuff.

Speaking of reviving dead horses. Did any of you ever see a movie called "The Horse whisperer"? That was the worst piece of crap ever. I'll describe it in a way that those of you who haven't seen it would understand. Here goes...It would rather get a lawn chair and a soda, and watch my neigbors dog take a crap on my lawn, than go see that piece of $%it! Every 5 frickin' seconds, the camera would zoom in on the horse's eye and then the human's eye. As if we;re supposed to get something.It was about as crappy as Lost in Translation. (which was absolutely and positively, a piece of trash) Anyway. Is this just my computer or does everyones computer take a while to get into this forum. When i click on my e-mail link to get here, it takes forever. It usually never does that so i figure that it might be the size of the post or something.

um.... I liked them both....

You did???????????????????????????????????????????????????? But, is that possible? to like both? At the same time?

no. I only liked the one I was watching at the time... I couldn't think about both of them at the same time.... you can only do that if you have a large brain so you can think that saxophones are formed from sheets of brass at the same time you think they are poured in molds. I can't think that way. I am, apparently, too arrogant.

Anyway. Is this just my computer or does everyones computer take a while to get into this forum. When i click on my e-mail link to get here, it takes forever. It usually never does that so i figure that it might be the size of the post or something. Does that happen to you?

Yay! James Carter plays Cannonballs! GO JAMES GO JAMES GO JAMES GO JAMES GO JAMES!

As promised, here are the details for our annealing process: For the bell, we take a flat piece of brass that has our specified and tested alloy. It is cut to shape, and then bent in half nearly flat by machine. A seam is welded and then hammered flat and filed. The bell is annealed (heat treated). It is put on a bell mandrel and hand hammered into shape. This process for the bell is repeated 3 to 4 times. The neck and body go through similar processes; the neck is annealed 3 times, the body is annealed twice. The heat treatment makes the brass soft, and then the hand hammering makes the brass hard. The whole process of annealing and hand hammering gives strength to the brass. Hand hammering is a great art and very difficult work. We believe the ring in the sound is enhanced with hand hammering, and also enhanced by the specific alloy we choose. I would like to say that quality, along with customer service is our number one priority. Anything mentioned on this site about Cannonball was addressed on our recent trip to Taiwan. Please know that quality is always and continually addressed. You, the players, are very important to us. Thank you, Sheryl Laukat Cannonball

well that settles it! I'm getting an alto cannonball! Thanx Sheryl!

Sheryl; Thankyou for that information. It sure clears up a lot of misconceptions I had about the process (as I'm sure it will for some others). It certainly sounds like a very painstaking and tedious process; but I can say I sure appreciate it, and have to say that, for the amount of hand-work in the manufacturing process, it sure seems to be a lot of value for the money. And in my opinion, the proof is in the final product. I love my Cannonball, and plan on getting another soon. Thanks again. I'm sure everyone appreciates the info.

I think it is very nice of you to go through this site for a small amount of people. I am not in the market for a sax right now, but i will most definitely consider Cannon Ball. I have said somewhere else, or even in this site possibly, that customer service is the MOST important thing to me. Two thirds of all my purchases depend on the customer service. The other third is if i love the sax. Thank you.

Sheryl, Show me a Cannonball tenor with the bold, brassy sound of my Conn 10M and the punch and brightness of my King Super 20, and I am sold! The last Cannonball alto I played really impressed me! I would definately consider one. I'd like to lay back on the 10M a little and keep it nice since I had it overhauled and restored a couple years ago.

shut up

OOooohhhhh. Sassy LOL This discussion is really taking a toll on how much time it takes to load.

my review, I played 2 CB tenors. The action was the easiest I have played except for broken-in old Selmers. The altimisso high G, and A were the easiest palying I have ever experienced. It was a blast playing F,F#,G, and A, and this is probably why some pros like them. However the mid-range sounded thin to me, compared to what I am used to. Maybe another mouthpiece would help. When I have heard other people play them, I noticed the same thinness. I think tenors involve some trade-off, it is hard to get the balance of easy high notes, cutting brightness ,and body, warmth, richness to the sound.

Kind of weird sitting here reading this post and a Cannonball Adderley song came on. Cannonballs are great horns, some better than others just like the mark VIs. I'd just play on it before buying (and try other brands, never know?)

Now WHY ON EARTH would you go an revive this DEAD HORSE?!!! I think the kid who started this post has now finished college and now has a job working for microsoft or something.... Maybe now he can afford a better horn than a Cannonball! 20 lashings with a wet noodle for reviving this post, and SHAME ON YOU!!!

lolol I agree with jim. Wasnt this last discussed in May?

Will someone please kill this thread?

I have just spent the last three hours reading this entire thread to kill some time. It has made me a little fonder of my Cannonball Stone Series Raven than I was before.

jeez...you don't want to read the new post, but you just have to..

Sorry, I just felt I should post something after doing all that reading. I do love my sax by the way, over all the other ones I played.

im just posting this cause this is annoying the hell out of me. I didnt read the enitire thing cause i got bored after spending a year of my life listining to you...people, yes, we will call you people for now... complain and yell (figuratvley) at each other. Who ever said cannonball was going to buy out selmer, your a F***ING idiot who probably dosent play sax, my money is that if you do play and instrument, its probably something stupid like the harpsichord. instead of b1tching about "he said this so, but it might mean that cbs arent the best thing sense the bop age, so hes got to be wrong" GROW UP, YOUR ALL ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF 6TH GRADERS WHO KNOW ABOUT 3 DIFFERENT TYPES OF SAXOPHONES, AND NONE OF THEM ARE WORTH A SH1T, YOU PROBABLY DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO SWING YOUR EIGHTHS, WITH ALL THE HARPSICHORD TRAINING YOUVE HAD, THATS REALLY SURPRISING, I REALLY DONT KNOW WHY IM STILL WRITING IN CAPS LOCK, BUT IT GETS THE POINT ACROSS, DOSENT IT? you need to grow up, and accept the fact that other people have opions, and if i could go through the internet and arrive at your house, id give you a whack upside the head a couple times, you immature little... i should probably stop before i p1ss off alot more people, but before i stop, REFRENCE 54's ARE WAY OVERPRICED AND THE MATTE FINISH LOOKS LIKE SH1T, YOU KNOW IT DOES, DONT DENY IT. ok, now im done

This requires a moment of silence... a very LONG moment of silence... :)

I'm not apologizing for this post. I have to say I tried a Raven stone series tenor today. Very nice. Very impressed. Will consider cannonball.

Yep. Ya just had to go and do it, didn't ya? (Me, too. I have several of them.....) But it's nice to see someone perpetuate the post... I remember how silly and opinionated some of these posts were, though misinformed.... But then, variety is the spice of life, is it not?

Brandon Fields is an AMAZING musician!!!

I was wondering if anyone heard of or has seen a cannonball that I believe is a prototype right now, and has a Dragon engraved on it. I would love to see a picture of it, but I wasn't able to find it on Cannonball's website, and one of my buds told me he saw it. Could anyone point me to it?

Here you go: forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=754666&postcount=1 I have also seen this sax in person and it is quite unique. The color is the actual color of the brass after being chemically treated. It is not colored lacquer or a coating of some kind. The folks at Cannonball are very creative and are constantly trying to come up with new and exiting ideas. John

That's a very nice looking alto. I'd be proud to have one in my quiver... providing it played OK and was made to last.