Response to conn sax man jim.The knights Templar have read your post.We suggest you do a little more research into Conn saxophones and their history. Wrong, Wrong, wrong.Catagorically unbelievabely and absolutely ..............................Wrong , Yes you suprised even us with that statement . School boy error never mind.Back to the drawing board. (Bird Lives)

TANGO YOU MORON!!!! YOU'RE THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! Conn Saxophones and their dates: 1888-1895- The "Worchester" models 1895-1917 The "Wonder" models 1910-1912 The "New Invention" models 1917-1924 The "New Wonder" models 1925-1930 The "New Wonder Series II" models (Chu Berry) 1929-1934 The "Transition" models 1935-1970 The "M" artist series (4,6,10,11,12,14-bass M models) 1935-1943 The "Connqueror" models 26M alto, 30M tenor 1948-1952 The "Connstellation" model 28M alto 1955-1980 Conn 14M" alto and "16M" tenor (later 18M alto) Director's model horns. After 1980 "20M, 24M, 25M altos, 92, 94, 108 and 110M DJH Modified Models (1980 to 1985), new 37M tenor Anyone who wants to learn more about the Conn company and their saxophones and other instruments, read this! TANGO.....READ THIS!!! www.usd.edu/~mbanks/CONTENT.html Saxpics also has a nice site which explains the model changes. Pete's dates are pretty close to mine, but on his site, he stated the Transitional period from 1929-1935, with the M series starting in 1935! He states the M series as running through 1971, but my sources say that the Elkhart factory was closed by the end of 1970, and NO M series ARTIST horns were built in Nogales. Tango, you're talking to a Conn collector and historian who has probably forgotten more about Conn saxophones than you know!

Response to conn sax man jim .The knights templar are finding you a major source of amusement.You still havent worked it out yet.Its like giving a young student the same lesson over and over again until they get it. Go back and carefully read your post.The knights will let you work it out for your self.Using foul language to the knights Templar wont help you learn.So we say again go back and read your original post on this thread.Or ask someone who knows about conn and the history.Sax quest may even be able to help you out.The knights state shouting and getting upset dosent help matters.Sometimes some people cant see the wood for the trees.This is no wind up.Check your sourses and check exactly your original statement.Hopefully youl get to your mistake.Good luck(Bird lives)

TANGO, are you on drugs? I have checked my sources and made reference to them! WHERE ARE YOUR SOURCES??? SHOW ME!!! I think you need to move along to another forum. AND QUIT DOING DRUGS BEFORE YOU FRY AWAY WHAT FEW REMAINING BRAIN CELLS YOU HAVE LEFT!

Yeah masn, Jim is very much so correct

Response to Connsaxman jim O dear your getting your self in a bit of a state.Lets try and smooth things it for you.Just for the record , not that anyone should care, The knights Templar have never taken any form of drug they do not drink alchohol , tea or coffee. No need to quote lists we can all do that.We are not willing to give the answer yet. The object here was a young player posted a thread asking for advice on three vintage American made saxophones.The knights Templar provided concise and best advice .There are very good reasons for the Knights being particular to the young musician.If this guy is smart when embarking on this course of action ,not only does he or she get a great horn but on route save them selves a lot of money.There is no catch.A young musician willing to learn and move up should be given a minimum of facts and a maximum of ideas.Primary source material narrows things down considerabely when formulating judgements. Its not unsimilar to ringing Patrick up at the selmer factory and ask him about 1932 super saxes,1931 selmers and ask if the company recognises the word cigar cutter, and discuss playing differences between these two horns.Now the knights are suggesting something here regarding conn and its anbiguous manufacturing in a certain decade.The clue is in the knights primary source.To shout on the forum dosent help matters.You question our intellect.A source of much amusement to us.The jazz musician is a savant by definition.One last thing a hint at TANGO SIX ONE which when refering to it you dont use its full title.There is reason for it, in the order of knights. Lastly on the original theme back in the 60s and early 70s was an AR 15 different from an M16.Would it have concerned the individual who sadly had to use it in order to stay alive. There are mistakes on your original post. End of lesson (Bird Lives)

You're to willing to give the answer yet. The only thing that makes any sense as to what you are saying, is that "M" is the letter than Conn uses to indentify saxophone. Conn also used a number to indicate rather the horn was a soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, or bass, and rather the horn was hi or low pitch. A 4M was a curved soprano, 6M an alto, 8M was a C Melody, 10M tenor, 12M baritone, and 14M bass. Odd numbers were used to identify high pitch instruments; for example, a high pitch alto would have been a 5M . This coding was done as early as the Wonder Series, but this is NOT the same as the 6M artist series I am referring to. Most historians cite the transitional years as being 1932-1934 and to start around serial number 249,000. The new horn was afficially named the " M Artist series" in 1934-1935. Much experimentation began as early as 1928 with the "F" horns; F Mezzo Soprano and Conn-O-Sax. I've seen earlier horns with features of the 6M, and I tend to agree with Pete Hales that the real transitional years are 1929-1934. The object here was a young player posted a thread asking for advice on three vintage American made saxophones.The knights Templar provided concise and best advice " . TANGO, you have been a source of much bad advice and amusment to all, but you are past the point of being amusing; now you are just plain annoying! Are all the Knights this stupid? Do they know that you, their "village idiot" has decided to be their spokesperson? You're clearly not the best representation of the Knights!

The Knights Templar do not share your opinion.We were willing to post absolute primary source proof to clear this matter up but alas not now..Again your use of language we certainly do not recognise.All our advice is truth. But as is often the case the masses cant or wont try to understand.The order speak several languages fluently, perhaps our spelling is not prefect,but we are fully aware of a culture of bullying, shooting from the hip ask questions later, and all of that.We are above that. we are Jazz musicians who play truth.Play ourselves and never anyone else.We are not going to bother to correct the latest inaccuracies.You remind us of the guy who went for a lesson with Bird .Bird told him thirteen scales the guy says what do you mean man, ( idiot) There are twelve, so bird says ok then twelve. Still you carry on making your lists.If it gives you satisfaction good for you.(Bird Lives)

haha! i didnt think such an innocent question would ellicit such a reaction! well just to lighten the mood, im not that young (i hate admitting this). the reason i asked about the 3 american brands was up until that time i played mostly on selmer horns (current gear: Mk6 and 7 tenor, SA 80 sop) and a few yamahas. having grown weary of my mk6 alto, i sold it and finally decided to look for an older, warmer and more lush sounding alto. this i found in the naked lady. and i thank you for helping me out, this is actually the first "american" horn i own...and for the very first time since i gave up the growl effect, because of its timbre and tonal qualities, my wife actually finds my tone more for " romancing", if you get what i mean:)

Good choice Mark! I'm glad you're happy with it. I love my 6M alto. It's one of the best sounding altos I have ever played, and the tone seems to fit well with many styles of music. Congratulations on your new horn. Jim

The Knights templar state that if you have been with selmer for years then moved to American vintage horns ,its really the best way round to do it.The selmer horns are great but different.The way you have gone about it is in our view thw best.You go from the baby cry wine on the top of the selmers to the matt fullness of American vintage.The knights Templar were in Europe this year with a fine saxophone player called Gerry Bergonzi. If you ever get the chance speak to this excellent honest jazz Artist about horns .He is unwittingly in the knights order and is with everything the knights stand for.He beares witness to the Selmer and Conn thing.If your ever up in the Berkley area you will catch this giant of a player.You should here him all over the USA.His music speaks totally from the heart but above all its honest. All the best with your choice of sax.( Bird Lives)

Response to connsaxmanjim LIST The knights Templar say yet again, we are not interested in any CV.You need to look closer at your list and accuracy. Also think back to what we have stated before.If you are a Historian you should understand the process required to make accurate diagnosis and be wiiling to be open minded.Go back and check M series against transisional horns, Special enthesis on serial numbers also look at the first use of roled tone holes, then do your Historian bit like a pro if thats how your trained.Do your home work again.If its done correctly.We think you may come to a different conclusion.

Tango, I've done my homework. To answer your question about the tone holes; My sources www.usd.edu/~mbanks/CONN11.html#sax show that Conn first introduced drawn-and- rolled tone holes in 1919 after a 1914 patent by William S. Haynes. This would have been the New Wonder Series I. I would guess that there are probably a few prototype horns out there that with rolled tone holes that date as early as 1917. The New Wonder Series I and Series II both had the B abd Bb keys on opposite sides of the bell. The later transitional models and 6M's had both the B and Bb keys on the same side of the bell. Some of the transitional models had the underslung octave key like the 6M, others had the top-mounted octave key. I've seen horns dated as early as 1930 that were basically 6M's, but if they are manufactured before mid-1934, technically, they are transitional models. IF you have any evidence to show that my information is incorrect, I ask that you post it. Otherwise, I think you need to drop it! Jim

I must say that this buffoon is really turning this site into a joke with his asinine behavior and comments. How many fresh fish are going to be walking around brainwashed by his misinformation, and out and out lies? What a farce. And Tango, if you are going to be permitted to spout your dribble all over the forums here, at least be couth enough to own, and use a spell checker. Your lack of a proper education is all to apparent in you sloppy posts.

Response to connsax man jim. Ok ok the knights have had so much fun with you your a star.The way things are going we could have you running to your screen night and day, day and night probably ending up with a serious illness.We dont wish that on anyone.So dont worry your self we will spare you humiliation.Im afraid you deserved the run around for your rude and foul mouth comments, very distasteful. We checked the website you posted.As a Historian you say you are, is that the only source,Its basic generalisations.Im looking at primary source material several of them 6ms 1932,one actually in my lap as i write.Stamped 6m correct serial number for the year in each case,although they dont have lady face on them.They are underslung with neck sleeves and rolled tone holes.We are not going to run you round any more you have suffered enough.Sax quest have kindly let the Knights continue after your requests for us to leave ,So you and your friends will have to think of something else.Dictating to the knights and using foul language to us, we are not sure thats the right method for your approach.But notice how jazz musicians deliver.Of course its different jazz musicians are different.That is the whole point. The knights Templar recognise you as an enemy of the jazz musician, but thats ok, we all know where we are. wish you all the best whatever your motives are.One last thing on the Conn website the picture ef the girl on the end in the 1920s holding the baritone ,its not you by any chance is it ? Odear well we thought it was funny. (Bird LIves).Thanks sax quest for allowing us to respond for the last time to this thread.

Ok Tango Six One, your horn that is alledgedly in your lap - its very similar to the 6M... BUT MANY HORNS THEN WERE!!!!! There are still diferences between your horn and a 6M, thats why its a bloody transitional horn!!! How can you sit there, and go against what tons of other historians and sax players have agreed on, including Pete "saxpics" Hales, Steve Goodson, etc.? They I gaurantee have done more research than you, I'm more inclined to believe them. It takes alot to do so, but you have finally irritated the snot outta me, SHUT UP

I just want to give a high 5 to definition, saxismyaxe, johnsonfromwisconsin, gordon gekko, sax_maniac, saxman88, blackfrancis, and anyone else who I failed to mention here for their positive, informative posts, and for taking the time to reply to other's posts and for giving good credible advice. For those of you keeping score, I think I've a few points up on Tango, but I can't win this game, because to win, this game would have to come to an end, and it seems Tango isn't about to throw in a towel. I think I have established credibility, and I have documented my resources to support my statements. I have tried to answer questions and maintain a positive attitude. I suppose calling Tango a MORON wasn't exactly being professional, but I have kept a civil tongue. My final response to Tango is: Your days here are numbered. You have lost all credibility with your readers. If I were you sir, I would do either one of two things. 1. Apologise to those people whom you have offended, drop the silly KNIGHTs act and try to make amends. 2. Leave gracefully, before you are asked to leave by the moderators. You're not going to get me worked up. I just think it's a disgrace that someone with as much knowledge as you CLAIM to have, hase to act like such an idiot! Does any of this make sense to you Tango? Do you comprehend why people are upset with you? Really, it doesn't matter to me what you say. Your credibilty with this forum is ZERO!

Response to Conn sax man jim. The knights have laughed at you so much .This is going no where is it ? its a total waist of time.It would be wise for sax quest may be to stop this post.You cant recognise this sadly.You and the rest,you have named are very sad individuals. in our view should be looked out for your offensive comments to us by sax quest.There are more than a few.We are above all this.We are not going to leave to try and improve your life.You are not an educated person so we can make allowances for your lack of understanding.The knights Templar and our counterparts the Teutonic Knights are agreed your behaviour has been hilarious,.We wont reply any more to this thank goodness.We take even bets you will make another reply ha ha .Take sax quests advice, if you dont understand and it bothers you just ignore it simple. But we will leave you with one thought.When you dont win playing a chess computer you attempt to smash it up with others help, believing you have got the better of it. Odear Conn sax man jim, never mind "Toys in the toy box toys out the toy box" Best wishes to all. (Bird Lives)

It's really too bad this board doesn't have a feature (like other boards) to block posts from members you'd rather not waste your time with. A 500 character limit would be a good idea, too. Nonetheless, SaxQuest makes for a decent "smoke break".

Anyone wanting more information about Conn saxophones and their dates, feel free to email me at any time. You can find a pretty accurate list of serial numbers at www.drrick.com/conn.html Jim

OK, guys. I'm ending this thread as its way off message and horribly dissatisfying to read. However, I'm starting a new thread related to the topic of Conn transitional saxophones and how we define them in the vintage saxophones forum . Cheers, Mark Overton