Saxophone Forum


by TANGO SIX ONE
(255 posts)
10 years ago

American horns verses French Horns

Lets hope The knightsTemplar are not duplicating recent posts, but may be a good heated debate can open up some new ground for current day manufacturers to consider.We all know great saxes but different right.The knights are looking for more radical opinion on each .So state a preference and then why its better , But nail it down to just one horn and be as objective as you can. By French we mean the Selmer Paris Company.

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  1. by west
    (242 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: American horns verses French Horns

    Who are the Knights Templar? Anywho, I like the Yamaha yts-875 the best. It has a vibrant, clear sound, looks beautiful, and is very reasonably priced. I've tried the selmers and while they're nice, the price is simply outrages, and i don't really care for the darker tone. It has a sort of,.......hazy, airy, foggy, raspy tone to it that i don't like. I don't know how else to describe it. Is that good enough?

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    1. by connsaxman_jim
      (2336 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: American horns verses French Horns

      I just haven't been able to get a tone that I liked out of a Selmer or a Yamaha really for that matter. I've played some really nice Yamaha horns that played very well and sounded good, but I just can't get too excited about their sound. The American horns just sound better to me. That's why my Mark VI and my SBA stay in the closet while my old Conns and Kings are played often.

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      1. by blackfrancis
        (396 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: American horns verses French Horns

        I might not have the radical opinion that you seek, Tango, but I have a couple of points to stir into the pot and a question for all you Conn enthusiasts. I agree on the Selmer tone issue for my tastes, and that's also why they make such good legit horns. But the point is this: an awful lot of our sax "gods" play Selmers and get really great sound out of them. I've gotten great sounds out of mine. So why do all these guys use Selmers? Point #2: The knights state in other posts that they start with the darkest horn they can get their Link on. Should you not then be big on Selmer or Buescher rather than Conn? The Question: Both my 10 M and my present transitional (6M-type) are not what you would call dark- very BIG and clear voiced, but definately not dark. Set up makes a difference, but with a mouthpiece/ reed that's dark on other horns, the 6M is still way brighter. Did I just get hooked up with a couple of wild ones or what?

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      2. by AJBalettie
        (11 posts)

        9 years ago

        Re: American horns verses French Horns

        I can't Agree more!! my 33 Martin Tenor and My 27 King Alto get more playing time then my yamaha and my VI.

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    2. by jamterry
      (573 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: American horns verses French Horns

      Is Yamaha an American horn? I must be dumber than I thought. I have two Mark VI's, and they play. They are set up to crack plaster and play lullabys. They bark down low and they squeal up high. The one thing that no other horn can duplicate is their legit sound, especially the alto. I started out with Buescher and Conn. This is as far as I go. I played the Ref 54, and I liked it a lot. Best wishes to all. :)

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  2. by TANGO SIX ONE
    (255 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: American horns verses French Horns

    Ok the knights templar will post early to help debate on a bit. Like lots of jazz players started out on what you could get for the money, eventually after some years sattled for the Selmer thing , Cigar Cutter MK6 SBA. Of these always liked the BA best.Had the characteristics of cigar cutter in the alloy but better bore etc.But the order stat that once youve been around the block nothing comes close to American Horns.But we have to say that sometimes takes years to work out beacause of that baby cry wine on selmers Vintage .Their great horns but we are convinced, particularly like us if your a link person.There are most certainly more colours to work with omn American Horns.This is not apparant sometimes for many years of playing.There was a time when we thought it Selmer,but no no when you fine tune and refine more and more and more the American horns are the best.Another plus is compared to a lot of great horns they get depth of sound in the alloy and they are light.(Bird Lives)

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    1. by selmer 4evr
      (309 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: American horns verses French Horns

      Ok I have a different opinion,,,, I teach and use a blowing method that focuses on pressure and air speed with the lungs as a resonant chamber . I never close my throat ,,never sing the high notes ,,,this produces no stuffiness on any note not even the middle D . My instrument of choice is a mark VII ,,,that's right !!!!! I like horns as timbré ( tame-bray cannot be translated ) as possible . They must have an uncolored neutral sound that can be played bright ,,,dark,,,loud ,,,soft without changing its voice. The result is a sound that always comes from the bell and not from the toneholes and gives the listener the distinct impression that the bore of the horn and not the reed is being played .

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      1. by davidau
        (37 posts)

        9 years ago

        Re: American horns verses French Horns

        hi what neck and MP do you play while when u using a mkVII thank you davidformosa@gmail.com

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      2. by selmer 4evr
        (309 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: American horns verses French Horns

        looks like the site does not accept accents timbre should have had an accent on the e and not the corresponding ascii code

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        1. by selmer 4evr
          (309 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          All american horns can be described as vintage since i do not know of any high end horns made in the US today For me vintage horns draw people only because of the aura of "vintage" but there are too many cons to consider so I prefer French Horns at least for now see www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Buying/vintage_modern.htm" target="other">www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Buying/vintage_modern.htm

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        2. by SelmerParisPassion
          (59 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          From what I've played, Selmer is superior in tone, resonance, and quality. (My user name kind of gives that away) Now, I'm not saying that the other horns are crap or anything, they're great, But if you want the best- Selmer is the best. ^^ Christie J.

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        3. by SelmerParisPassion
          (59 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          As in Selmer Paris horns, as a footnote. Selmer USA are student/intermediate horns.

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        4. by west
          (242 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          There are always exceptions however. I think the Mark VI is an american Selmer.

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        5. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          we americans made the Mark VI legendary. mine were made in paris. it is a great horn. i can get a sound like a deep boiling cauldron and take it up seven lines above the staff. i wouldn't trade my horns for any others.

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        6. by west
          (242 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          At sven lines above the staff, you have to think about wich note it is right? That's awesome

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        7. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          get the book "ted nash's studies in high harmonics" after you work through the book those notes will become secong nature to you. it is the same with your licks, make them part of you.

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        8. by west
          (242 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          That would be in any music store right? I'll right it down and go look for it.

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        9. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          this is an old book west, so let me know if you can't find it. the original copyright is 1946 with MCA publications. it is now distributed by Hal Leonard. if you can't find it i will track one down for you.

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        10. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          "From what I've played, Selmer is superior in tone, resonance, and quality. " Christie, I have owned 3 Selmers; all of them French made. I traded a Selmer Series III Soprano for a mint Buescher 400 Top Hat & Cane. I owned the Selmer for a little more than a year, and let me tell you, the quality was lousy! I also own a Selmer Mark VI tenor and an SBA alto. The quality of the older Selmers is very good, but superior in tone? Not for my needs! For the type of music I play the Selmer just doesn't have enough character and definition. My Conn 10M sounds so much better. "But if you want the best, Selmer is the best. That's what most band directors would want you to think, but for my needs, Selmer doesn't have the sound. Selmer the bes? Absolutely not, and I feel that the quality of the Selmers today doesn't compare to those of yesterday. I'll never own another Selmer horn!

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        11. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          a band director is not going to tell you what horn to buy unless you ask for advice. i studied with fred hemke and the band director was john paynter. neither of them made mention of my horn. my horn was a conn 16m. the other horns are ok for rock, like clarence clemons plays for bruce springsteen.you can growl in them and that's fine. if you have any jazz aspirations, those horns are thin on the tone. if you blow that screech funk (junior walker) and rock stuff they are fine. as far as playing deep and fluid jazz, a selmer is the way to go. also if you play in a concert band, selmer is the way to go. i think that the biggest difference is in alto sax. tenor sax is not as precise as alto. if you have a chance, listen to fred hemke. he is arguably the best alto player that ever lived. best of luck to you :)

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        12. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          i highly recommend the ref 54. it plays as good as my mark VI's

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        13. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Yes this is the heart of the matter The knights Templar think this thread developing to this point by connsax man jim.The knights are in a position to able to check out quite a few horns on a regular baisis.We stated that nowadays we prefer Conns vintage , like super 20s ,martins are good however vintage selmer as connsaxman jim has said are great and far superior to any of the new Selmers.Thats not to say the new ones arnt good they are .The reference a little brighter Referense 36 darker with what we could call a medium roundness .The 3 is series has a sililarities not quite as round as ref 36 not quite as bright as ref54, .But they all good horns but they lack the full on baby cry selmer sound at the top, and the medium crackle that is so sought after for example on vintage mk6 we think before year61 or the brilliant other buzz and pur of cigar cutter.Selmer havent managed to get that yet.American vintage horns have a total different quality the Knights can debate later.However their is one new horn on the market that comes close . WIll debate later( Bird lives)

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        14. by west
          (242 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Who are the Knight Templar????? Tango six one- I can't speak for everybody, but that post didn't make much sense to me.

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        15. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          The Knights Templar state that the key in playing any jazz saxophone is about centering the sound.Before you all the other individulistic devices.This is where American horns show more consistancy.Our order are not talking tuning,where discussing sound.Once that is totally centered and thats another whole thread to discuss on its own.From this centre you can attempt to find all the beutiful expance of colours that is missed by most.French vintage Selmers that crackle sound in the mid stack range centre very differently not consistant therefore when a experienced player plays example vintage mk6 or BA within a few minutes will give it more time or dismiss the horn because the diversification is huge.This is not an issue on American vintage they have consistant centering if set up correctly. (Bird Lives)

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        16. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I really like the new Keilwerth horns. Especially the SX90R. The SX90R sounds so much like a vintage Conn; especially the tenor. Keilwerth's quality is very good. I am very impressed with the SX90 Soprano I purchased a few months ago. I think the new Cannonball Big Bell and their new Stone series are worth mentioning here too. Cannonball has made a lot of improvements in their newest horns, and the last 2 Cannonball horns I have played have really impressed me. Their sound can be described as a cross between a vintage Selmer Mark VI and a Kind Super 20. The quality of these Cannonballs seems to be improving, while the quality of the new Selmers is not equal to the Selmers of yesterday. The Yamaha saxophones are a great value and a good quality horn, but lack the colorful definition and character of the Cannonball or the Keilwerth. My advice? GO VINTAGE! Find yourself a nice Conn 6M or 10M, a King Super 20, Buescher 400 TH&C, a Martin, or an older Selmer SBA or Mk VI. The most bang for the buck would be the Conn or Buescher probably.

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        17. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Response to connsaxman jim If new is your angle then sound wis you woulnt go far wrong with SX90. Totally agree, like an old conn however, there are sound elements af Selmer BA its a nice combination for a new horn.Not as easy to handle as Selmer buy by far Keilwerth have nailed down a horn that has all the depth and similarities to vintage horns of both French and American.Its interesting how a player can kill off the potential of a certain horn colours and sound by their set up.Vintage American horns win the day for us ,they dont handle as well as the golden era of French Selmer.The American vintage horns have the power but they are light in weight.A drew back of keilwerth.

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        18. by sardonic_z
          (8 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Aren't the Knights Templar some sort of fraternal organization, like shriners or masons or the elks club? Or maybe you're related to the knights of columbus. You guys don't secretly run the saxophone world, do you? If so, then how come I can't get a decent tenor reed for less the three bucks a pop?

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        19. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          The Knights Templar think this a very good question. Reeds, to find or not find a good one this is the question. The sugar cane crop is important. So the knights are interested in long term weather.Reeds a whole debate in its self.The reed is that last bit of the siguature to create the individuality.The Knights order teach a system of making a box of 10 reeds last approx to 5 months.For example if the student plays approx 4 to 5 hours a day.Our system is unique.They will all be as gigging reeds.But thats Classified.(Bird Lives)

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        20. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          what i was saying is that i can tell you what to look for in a reed. i have never bought a box of reeds in my life. i always hand pick the reeds. rico is fine for beginners. i recommend lavoz for intermediate level , and vandoren for advanced players. there is a way to pick reeds that my teacher passed down to me before most of you were born. best wishes :)

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        21. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          HA HA The knights templar find this amusing , but ok so you have telepathic skills . The knights can do similar , but even when you have your brand and your sure really sure you dont know till you try them no matter how you look at them, heart shape light, heavy, look there are loads of things to look for.The secret is what you do with them when you have got them.But just by looking is near fail safe.Ha ha But we like the answer.The knights state reed life and extention of this. Important. Its impossible to tell an un blown reed, its a guide, its impossible to meet your specification without balancing it.Ever one is different (Bird Lives)

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        22. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          HA HA The knights templar find this amusing , but ok so you have telepathic skills . The knights can do similar , but even when you have your brand and your sure really sure you dont know till you try them no matter how you look at them, heart shape light, heavy, look there are loads of things to look for.The secret is what you do with them when you have got them.But just by looking is near fail safe.Ha ha But we like the answer.The knights state reed life and extention of this. Important. Its impossible to tell an un blown reed, its a guide, its impossible to meet your specification without balancing it.Ever one is different (Bird Lives)

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        23. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          The knights Templar did not mean to post twice,unfortunate.But we can mention that our psychological department of the knights templar within the limits of the post have done psychoanaalysis on the words"before most of you were born". Its by no means conclusive but the Knights state that who ever wrote those words ,is younger than they are making out in order to gain some credibility.The ratio is 85% to for 15 % against.The knights also state thatJazz savants would never be insular to use this phrasing.It should be stated that the knights templer have had many fine hours of fun with other jazz players watching the sax players with under 5 or 6 years experience coming in and asking to open boxes and to pick individual reeds. o boy Real hipsters.Eventually a littlle more experience year 9 and 10 onwards they realise.What these people have never realised in the early years is that the good music shops are wise to these charaters coming in.Probably why in these early years they struggle to get good reeds.Lets face it would you buy a saxophone you had never been able to try first? (Bird Lives)

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        24. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I mentioned the reeds in hopes that i could help somebody. Thanks for making me feel so young. :) There ARE certain guidelines to go by when going through a box of reeds. No guarantees one way or the other.

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        25. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I've said this before a few times but here goes... I got my 1941 10M (I won't touch anything before 45) from a guy who set up a new selmer series 3 tenor. He said my horn is just about as good (keywork) as the selmer and the sound is A LOT bigger and better... Yes mouthpieces do make a big difference. I was lucky enough to "find" a florida link 8* and wow do they go great together. It's not a bright tone, but I can really open the sound up. I have a 1940 (I think) 6M, and it's a love hate deal. I still haven't found the right mpc for it yet, although I didn't reall go looking to hard. I do know that alto will just scream! But anyway, I'm not in the market to spend over $2000 on anything, and the old conns where just perfect for me. my .02

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        26. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Hey chiamac, My 6M is a 1950. I've tried so many different mouthpieces on that horn! The Otto Link Tone Edge hard rubber piece works the best of any of them.

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        27. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Response to chiamac.The knights templar totally agree, in our view an excellent choice of horns.Its a big thing going down the conn route you either you dig it or,like most selmer men ,dig selmer but always have vintage conn under the bed.Keep it to them selves.. In doing this conn dosent get the attention it deserves to shine.The Knights templar use various vintage Links10 9* 8* and on the 10ms.For the tough sessions 9* is great for us.Vintage links vary a lot , more consistancy in new links but marginaly airy, loose slight depth although a touch more on power. Those 6ms are great horns.The Knights have always used eboinite on alto, a total matt sounding power around a7 rouseau or meyers. Did well getting that link,We feel 10ms because of their matt fullness the horn needs an amount of lift.Vintage link, is the difinitive choice. 6msThe knights templar state search the globe for arouseau SJ7, its the business.Believe the Knights on this one where giving away something here but we pay maximum respect to vintage conn deciples Meyers also work great better on vintage selmers on 6m great but watch the lay they skate around on tuning over about a 6. The Conn saxophone is a animal that needs firm handling,but if you believe and stick with it, great (Bird lives)

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        28. by selmer 4evr
          (309 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I agree with SelmerParisPassion the american selmers ( Omega and the lot ) are nowhere near to the Paris issue the mark VI was a paris horn if it was assembled in the US for a while. By the way I believe I once heard that the MarkVI sold in Nrth Am. were laqrd this side of the pond ( and after the pads were on the horn ) can anyone substantiate this ?

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        29. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          And I would say that the best Selmers are the ones that were made by Conn and Buescher before Selmer bought out Buescher and screwed them up! I have owned 3 French Selmers! A 1952 SBA alto and 1954 Mark VI tenor, which I still own, and a 2003 Series III soprano which I recently traded off for a Buescher 400 TH&C tenor. The Selmers just don't do it for me! Never have! VINTAGE CONNS RULE!!!

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        30. by selmer 4evr
          (309 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          here is a thought,,,, is it possible that the horns we choose are not a function of just preference in sound or mechanism or even build. Could it be that the language we speak will determine our choices more than we think. Example: French is a very articulate language, could it be that the engineers at Selmer are affected in their designs by their speaking and pronunciations? Are French Selmers a product of the language more than we care to admit? Are those saxophonists that are looking for articulate horns due to their musical preferences inevitably going to choose a Selmer Paris? Can anyone envision using a vintage Conn to play La Musique Francaise!!!? Are the Italian horns and German horns different to the French simply because the languages differ. Is the heavy German pronunciation a contributing factor to the Kenilworth sound???

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        31. by eman19
          (131 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Its an interesting idea, but I think the sound would come more from the player than the horn. I've played a good chunk of horns and my sound is always my sound [which is a lot like me - big, full, kinda chunky and doesn't like to get high=o)]. So the players original country may change his sound but I don't think the horns origin will effect it to too great of an extent. I do note a difference in playbility on a horn sometimes, but that has more to do with the quality versus the horn I think. I mean Bird is well known for playing 6Ms, but truthfully he was kind of a saxophone tart, playing whatever instrument came his way - yet it always sounded like him, you know what I mean? I think this line of questions American vs. french and vintage vs. new just needs to quit. Its preference really as to what fits you the best, and the same horn will not be right for two different people.

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        32. by Candyboy
          (75 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          While it may be true that my favorite horn would most certainly feel awkword to someone else, I must say something about the sound. I own 20 saxophones most are tenors. One is a Yamaha YTS-61 That I bought brand new in 1979 one is a Selmer 1956 MK6 tenor. The rest are are american made. The yamaha and the selmer are very similar in sound and ergonomics which are both excellent. But they don't resonate the way that my old conns do. I feel somehow too detached playing the french and japanese horns. My 10M serial M275xxx feels and sounds great ,but seems a little heavy and the left hand pinky keys are a hunt and stab affair. As far as tenor saxes go, I can feel at one with a chu. I own 3 of them and a series I New Wonder which is basically the same horn. They buzz with feedback that feels very personal and part of me, and I like that. They are very picky as to what mouthpiece will work. Unmodified, the ergonomics are awful but one can get used to it or modify it like I have. I don't like lacquer on my horns it darkens the sound. I play them naked. Sorry Tango (bird died)

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        33. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Response to candy boy.Good post candy boy question for you on the chu models do you lift the crooks in otherwords change the position of them.The knights templar have noted that this is done for better feel and handling, but we have a suspicion that the sound isnt exactly the same.The jury is still out on that one, may be you or Connsaxmanjim could voice your opinions.(Bird Lives) but word recently filtered through to the knights that Elvis is dead.

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        34. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I made a brass ring which is about .040 thick that fits around the neck between the neck and the body. It's just thick enough to raise the crook and stabilize tuning on some of the older Conns with different mouthpieces. I made this a few years ago, when I was having some problems with my Conn 10M with certain mouthpieces, and it seemed to make a difference in the tuning. I really didn't notice much difference in the sound though. I suppose the method you use to raise the crook could make a difference. That's why I used the brass ring, and I also wanted something that I could "undo" that wouldn't be perminent. Many people have tried my horn and asked me about the action. Usually if I get any complaints from people who try my horn it's the ergonomics and key configuration. It's a small price to pay for the sound though. I guess I have learned to deal with it, as I have been playing the 10M for so long. I own 25 vintage horns and 1 new Keilwerth, and they all feel different. The Conns and the Bueschers seem to be the most alike.

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        35. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Response to Connsaxmanjim: yes very interesting, The knights were thinking of this because obviously some peoples mouth and jaw change with the slight lift.We favour the 10ms, but on all the tenors not altos as well as setting the action a little faster the main thing with these is to drop the ring hook approx 6 or 7 cm.(Bird Lives)

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        36. by Candyboy
          (75 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Tango and Jim, I didn't think of using a ring. I made mine more permanent and set it for a specific mouthpiece a berg 95-0-M, using a short fat cork. I straightened the neck as much as possible by unsoldering all the parts and working out all the dings and pulling the neck up as much as I could and still keep the bore round. The horn I started with looked like it had been thrown across a parking lot. I have pictures, before and after. I resized the small end of the neck to.515 inches and worked the taper to meet it. On the body, I set the bell and bow exactly 15 degrees to the right, so that it felt right standing and playing, then I moved the right hand thumb rest as high as I could without interfering with the F# key which I tightened the guard on. I added a strap hook about 7mm down from the original one (it may be a bit too low). Then I lenghtened or shortened the bell/bow keys to fit right, then repadded it. The old horn works great. Sorry if this sounds like sacriliedge. Next time I'll tell you what I did to 'ol Crusty, my Conn C-mel. I'd love to send you some Pictures

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        37. by west
          (242 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          How does the sax look after all that beating

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        38. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Response to candyboy.the knights templar state very interesting indeed, particularly moving the right thumb rest up.!5degrees to the right, thats serious stuff.We will take this to one of our order who is a specialist in this department.Excellent post Respect (Bird lives)

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        39. by Candyboy
          (75 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I just now sent Tango and West some pictures. if anyone else is interested just let me know. I have also been consindering adding a tongue to the C# key as I always play it with my palm anyway, like I did on my C-mel.

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        40. by definition
          (963 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Id love to see the franken horn you've created, i have a frankenhorn trumpet of my own

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        41. by Candyboy
          (75 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          As you can see from the pics I sent you, the horn looks like any other Chu Berry tenor, but the F# tone hole is a little to the right of center instead of left, where the Eb tone hole is centered at the back of the horn, and the thumbrest is about as high as I could put it. I still have a bad habbit of resting my thumb on the F# key.

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        42. by west
          (242 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          I am surprised to see that it still looks very nice. You're pretty good at customizing

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        43. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Response to Candyboy.The knights templar thankyou for the pics.Good way to send them as well so no attach neccessary, safer and excellent.l Maximum respect candyboy, a really fine job.The way we have done things in the past would be to move the exsisting ring hook,but you put an extra one on, if you like creating an option i would assume.Thats great we really appreciate this, we will pass on to one of our specialists.Very very interesting.We will spend some time with this and then at a later date check out the overall benefits Connsaxman jim i know will also do some serius scrutinasing .) The knights templar are leaving this forum for others but with this type of quality posts, along with jim,blackfrancis,yourself Knorter, and many others its a good heated forum, but we feel that the rubish that keeps parachuting in isnt dealt with srongly enough.Top quality stuff Candyboy All the best.(Bird, traine, and the Bergonz live)

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        44. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          hey Candyboy, could you send those pics my way? chiamac@gmail.com thanks!

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        45. by Candyboy
          (75 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          Sure thing Chiamac. My wife and my friends think that I'm mentally ill because I spend so much time with my saxophones. A couple of months ago I spent a week,and a lot of money, taking an engraving class from a master engraver, just so I could customize saxophones. Maybe I am sick, but it could be worse. Where's Tango? (Bird Lives)

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        46. by BimJeam
          (2 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          My first horn was a Yami YTS21 which although only a student model had a warm enough sound. I played it for about 5 years. For the last year I have been playing a Buescher 400 TH&C Tenor (circa 1942) but, facing the cost of a rebuild have just brought a 1932 Conn Transitional and have decided to sell the TH&C. Personally I think the TH&C has a great sound, big & warm in the lower end and it is (I am?) capable of rich fat harmonics, however imho the Conn "Tranny" is fantastic. It produces a super rich tone and has a really consistent openness all the way through the horn. I've only had it a week so I am yet to explore all it's inherent beauty but it is certainely more "jazzy" sounding than the TH&C. Playing that and then the TH&C I find that the TH&C, although warm/fat, is actually a little stuffy sounding by comparison. Having been a trumpet player for a number of years and playing with various Tenor players I now believe that there is a medical condition among many Tenor players called "Mark VI'itis". From my discussions with repairers and players the Mark VI's seem to be inconsistent in their production (I think someone else pointed this out above) and you really have to be in the right place at the right time (and with the right amount of bread in your pocket) to get a really special one. On the other hand the Tranny and early 10M Lady Face tenors are almost always great sounding horns from all reports. Also, I don't know exactly how true this is, but I have heard that while many of the jazz gods recorded on Mark VI's (because they were endorsed/sponsored by Selmer) they actually often played on Conn's, Bueschers and the like when playing live. Lets talk about ergonomics. I think too many people get hung up about what horn to buy because of this. Sure the French style horns have what many consider better key positioning etc but in reality how many of us are ever going to play faster than what a vintage American might allow. I have a young family and work full time. I play an average of 2 gigs a week and hardly have any time to practice at all so I accept that I will probably never play my Tranny as fast as some on their Mark VIs have, but so what? I'm sure I would not be alone in this regard. Imho it is sound over ergonomics, and I think the Americans cane in the sound department.

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        47. by Candyboy
          (75 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: American horns verses French Horns

          You could change the ergonomics like I did on my Chu and Conn C-mel. On the C-mel I added a tongue that sticks out from the Low C# so that I can hit it with my palm just below my left pinky. I really like this modification and plan to make this change to my Chu.

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