Saxophone Forum


by TANGO SIX ONE
(255 posts)
9 years ago

True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

The knights templar state that as players progress they go through a stage of the equipment thing, so much so that thay believe the horn carries the largest % of the sound production .Obviously its a onbination between Horn, Mouthpiece, Reed , and ones self.The knights templar state that that these %s change in ones mind as you develop.The knights state 20%Horn, 50% mouthpiece and reed and 30% you.Interesting how much money is forked out on the fine tuning of the 20% right.The question is do you feel these to be a true reflection or different?

Reply To Post [Report Abuse]

Report Abuse

Replies

  1. by Spike
    (248 posts)

    9 years ago

    Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

    false. 99% you 1% setup

    Reply To Post


  2. by CajunSax
    (76 posts)

    9 years ago

    Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

    Well my Illuminati Brother, I think you're right about a lot of these people spendings thousands just to get that mark VI when they can hardly play a lick. I think it's similar to golfers and their constant blame on their driver or putter. The Free Masons couldn't design a sax that plays perfectly...the ultimate change is the player. I'd have to say the player is 60%, horn is 20%, and mpc/reed is 10%, leaving the remaining 10% to something a lot of players forget about...Microphones. Whether you're recording or playing live, you have to get the sound engineered right. In the past I have ignored that aspect and have only recently developed my technical awareness of how much difference a good condensor mic can make. I see you put a lot on the mpc/reed, but if the player sucks, then it wont matter what kind of mpc/reed is on there... not to disagree with you, but just a thought. Earth, Air, Fire, Water

    Reply To Post Yahoo!


    1. by SaxMan88
      (318 posts)

      9 years ago

      Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

      I think I agree with you CaliKjn. I think I have a decent sound without mic'd, then at the concert the other nite when I did my solos I sound a ton better. Our 'clinician' I guess you could call him (a friend of the director's) who's an awesome guy came up to me after my improv solo on "Evil Ways" and he said to me, "Wow, it sounded like David Sanborn walked in the room for a minute." That felt pretty good. My setup? A student model Armstrong alto (for this solo in-peticular), Conn Precision mouthpiece (that's been with the alto since the dawn of time), a Rovner Dark Ligature and Vandoren ZZ 3's. I think the lig and reed combo added spice to my mouthpiece, and therefore made my sound brighter. Sure, I want to get a pro alto and soprano before college (that Armstrong is 15 years old without any real maitenence...my brother's before mine and no pad job no regulation etc), but I tell ya from this past couple of days I have to agree with the previous poster. PS: I'm now playing on a pro Selmer LaVoix for my tenor setup. I think I'm gonna get a Dukoff D7 soon for a mouthpiece for the stock S80 C* is just kinda blah.

      Reply To Post


    2. by knorter
      (205 posts)

      9 years ago

      Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

      I think I wrote this on an earlier post about mouthpieces but just food for thought. We all know that Bird had a drug problem. He often would show up to recording sessions without his horn because he had sold it for a fix the day before. Many times people would have to scramble to get him a horn for the session. Often he was playing on whatever horn, mouthpiece, reed, etc... that they could get at the last minute yet we all recognize his sound instantly on every recording, including a recording on a plastic sax. Therefore: 80% player, 10% horn, 5% mouthpiece, 5% reed. When we are talking about reeds should we clarify whether we are talking about types of reeds or finding a good one in the box and working on it? I agree with CaliKjn, these objects enhance the player. If the musician hasn't done the hard work to develop a sound then no setup can help. Good post.

      Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM ICQ


      1. by TANGO SIX ONE
        (255 posts)

        9 years ago

        Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

        Response to Knorter: The knights respect another v interesting view point. Yes the knights templar totally agree with you if the work hasnt been put in, then equipment worth little.Excellent (Bird lives)

        Reply To Post


    3. by TANGO SIX ONE
      (255 posts)

      9 years ago

      Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

      Response to Calikin: The knights state very intersting point on the mic bit may be a seperate thread to debate that one.An interesting difference of opinion here, yes we believe alot in the mpc/reed .Set up, out weighing the horn,but "60% player" yea nice one.(Bird lives)

      Reply To Post


      1. by EL Seano
        (255 posts)

        9 years ago

        Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

        El falso Aw hawhawhaw

        Reply To Post


        1. by blackfrancis
          (396 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          I agree with calikjn- more onus upon the player- my percentages are more like 80%-10%-10%. To add to the microphone subject, include your sound man (live) or engineer (recording). They can either make you sound great or really bad. Always carry a BB gun in case you meet up with a bad one. Also equipment quality- you're only as good as your amp.

          Reply To Post


        2. by martysax
          (148 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          It's 50/50 in any relationship that thrives. If we consider the product to be the essence of the sound we are trying to produce, we must be in perfect harmony with ourselves and our instrument of the moment. If I am giving everything into my horn, I want everything to come out the other end with the desired characteristics and nuances. Otherwise, I would just sing. That being said, 50% Player; 20%Horn/Mouthpiece/reed combination; 30% Sax Technician seen regularly. I recommend Emilio. He has made music a truly enjoyable, theraputic and profitable part of my life.

          Reply To Post


        3. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Ha ha excellent the Knights templar really like this one Sax technician seen regularly. 50, 50. yea can see that .Excellent post.(Bird lives )

          Reply To Post


        4. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Response to blackfrancis:80 ,10 10 .Ok the ,the knights Templar like it, but consider an experienced player picking up a basic beginner instrument.1. plays it with his set up as a demo.Then 2. plays it as a demo with basic mp and reed that came with it.We feel that be there is a considerable difference of % in this area.Yes the mic subject.Your right,Its a major problem at times.Were the knights come from more often than not when you get to the jazz club the sound man usually looks like a heavy metal freak sitting behind the desk.Just the site of them sets your heart racing. Good point The knights Templar are taking bets that within the next 24 hours of this post someones going to come up with the 100% theory. now that will be a good one. (Bird Lives)

          Reply To Post


        5. by CajunSax
          (76 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Blackfrancis made a good point about the sound man or engineer, but recently i've made a difference by reading up on some of the technology. Now if my sound guy/engineer pulls a no-show or is too high to pay attention, I can at least pick up the slack, if not all of it. About a year ago I bought my own set of mics, PA, stands, speakers, you name it. Now I don't have to rely on the tattooed heavy metal grunge guy to make me sound good...well at least I'll have the option to use my own stuff. Also for recording...it helps to know your way around ProTools or whatever your engineer/producer is using. That way you can tweak something that he doesn't pick up. And TANGO - why do u refer to yourself as the Knights Templer? Hope I'm not opening up a can of worms...but did you get that big of a hard-on reading Angels & Demons or was it watching Nicholas Cage in National Treasure? Also, anyone referring to themselves in the 3rd person (especially plural form)should spend more time on his chops instead of worrying about if he has the right mouthpiece. (Grover Lives)

          Reply To Post Yahoo!


        6. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          How about the concept of a sliding scale (no I don't mean a musical scale) The equipment means more to the better player than the less experienced. Great equipment for a beginner means nothing, however the same equipment for a pro could prove to make a huge difference. I'd like to state a different % based on the player's ability. Advanced: 70% player--5% to everything else that has been discussed: reeds, mouthpiece, environment, horns etc... intermediate: 85% player ditto to everything else beginner: 95% Player--the rest you know the drill Maybe the percentages have to change based on the level of musician. 2 former students come to mind: one was attending a jazz camp and came with a brand new Selmer series III tenor, a Guardala Fat Boy mouthpiece, ZZ reeds and a snazzy gig case. The other was playing a school owned bundy held together by some rubberbands and the stock mouthpiece. Both were the same age. The Selmer kid never practiced. The other at age 11 had transcribed Bird off of one of his Dad's records just because he liked it not because someone told him to. Obviously, guess who sounded better.

          Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM ICQ


        7. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          I'd like to add: this is assuming that all equipment is in good working order for it's intended use: good reed from the box no matter what type you use, horn is adjusted properly, mouthpiece doesn't have any facing issues, etc...

          Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM ICQ


        8. by CajunSax
          (76 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          i know what u mean knorter...i was the kid in school with mom's 20+ yr-old Vito student model, some Rico piece and one reed that had to last me months at a time...typical middle-low class situation. Meanwhile all the other kids had brand new Yamaha's and Selmer's. Guess who never left 1st chair. I've got a knock-off Soprano that sounds great too ...wonder why that is? Now, I've got producers buying me Mark VI's and any piece I want. If a cat can play then it doesn't matter what the horn, piece, etc...assuming like u said it's in working order, pads ok, etc. I remember at a high school concert festival (remember those?) where some freshman jackass knocked over my alto (the school horn, not mom's)and bent up some keys...major repair. We were at a local college and I knew some of the students (comes with the territory if u have the chops) so one of them lent me his Mark VII alto...this was 5 minutes before we went on with judges & all...u know the drill. I didn't crack once or miss one note. The pressure was on, especially with a handful of solos (director took advantage of his ace of course), but I pulled thru it all and have believed ever since in the "any sax, any time, any place" mentality. I think I could play a kazoo stuck on the cork of the gooseneck and make something happen...hmm...maybe I should try it...some new avant garde sound maybe...interesting?

          Reply To Post Yahoo!


        9. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Back in Bird's day, I would agree that the percentages are probably more like 70% player, 15% horn 10%mouthpiece and 5% reed. The horns were much more consistant back then. Most were very similar. Today, there seems to be a much bigger varience between equipment. There are the better brands; Keilwerth, Selmer, Yanagisawa, Yamaha and Cannonball; which, even though the quality of all is good, they are made considerably different and play very different from one another. Then, there are the cheaper instruments like Monique, Schill, Band Now, Blessing, and the list goes on and on. These instruments just don't compare to the better brands, and even the most inexperienced player can tell the difference between these horns and the better quality horns. Today I would think that the percentages would look more like 40% player, 40% horn, 15% mouthpiece, and 5% reed.

          Reply To Post Yahoo!


        10. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Response to connsaxmanjim.Very interesting point refering to instrument quality.The knights templar agree even the novice player tells the difference whwn an experiencer blower check out horns.The knights like the 5% reed bit.What is interesting is the quality of posts on this topic all so far excellent the knights templar pay full respect. (Bird Lives)

          Reply To Post


        11. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Response to Knorter:The knights think thats a very good point , changing % with the standard of player.We think thats got to be the case.Excellent, yea the order of knights dig that one a "sliding scale of percentages."The knights would just like to say thank god we as sax players know what we mean here because to most lay people that last statement would go way over their heads.The knights state: once a sax player its with you for ever no turning back Great. By the way good post from everyone (Bird Lives)

          Reply To Post


        12. by CajunSax
          (76 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          I can see the 'sliding scale' theory working with regards to the quality of player...excellent. Now how bout this: Apply the sliding scale to every variable. Now there's a thought. Basicly, if it's a pro player, a good horn, and NOT a good mpc/reed, then the Player needs to carry the extra load...say 88/10/2 split. Or if the same player has a nice mpc/reed, but a bad horn, then the split would be 88/7/5. In either instance, the player had to compensate for faulty equipment. Maybe we are using the wrong model all-together. Instead of a pie-chart, maybe it should be a point-rating type deal...similar to what you see on a customer satisfaction survey: Example: Rank 1-10, 10 being the highest Chops: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Horn: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 mpc: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Reed: 1....10 Mic: 1....10 Sound Man: 1...10 Engineer: 1...10 PA/Sound: 1...10 Repair/Upkeep: 1...10 Then you could 'weight' each category according to the significance. As in a 10 repair man isn't near as important if your skills are a 2. So again, the sliding scale comes up again based on the player's needs, not just ability. Agree...this is a good thread, great contribution by all. (Kenny G should be dead)

          Reply To Post Yahoo!


        13. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Response to calikjn: The knights templar, excellent thought process, great post the thread has developed and the ideas are flowing,Quality stuff all round. Respect: From the knights.(Bird lives)

          Reply To Post


        14. by EL Seano
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          for myself, its 30%=reed 10%=mouthpiece 30%=horn and the rest is me.

          Reply To Post


        15. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          I own several vintage American horns; Conn, King, and Buescher. My style is very recognizable, but there are noticable differences between certain horns. If I'm playing my 1929 Chu Berry and pick up my 1958 King Super 20, you'll notice a big difference in sound between the 2 horns....even with the same mouthpiece. The horn certainly makes a difference. Especially with such a wide variety of horns to chose from today. From vintage American horns and Selmer vintage to the newer Selmer, Yamaha, Keilwerth, Yanagisawa, and Cannonball.....all of them different from one another. I think if goes without saying that NO HORN CAN MAKE UP FOR THE SKILL OF A PLAYER! With my horns. I would say that the horn makes up about 30% of MY sound; the mouthpiece 15%, the reed 5% and the remaining 50% is me!

          Reply To Post Yahoo!


        16. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Response To consaxmanjim.Good one yes your right a different horn can open a whole new can of worms sometimes even with the same set up.The Knights templar missed out on a very good exchange on vintage post.The knights templar watched you ride the gauntlet, thats the spirit jim, American Vintage all the way. But as you now know the Knights are from Europe but our quest continues.Respect (Bird lives)

          Reply To Post


        17. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          Response to Calikjn ,Knorter.The knights Templar were in between gigs the other night, in the main hall of the Castle were considering this post.Yes perhaps a paper could be published here by you people on the "sliding scale of percentages"we think if its done right there is room for an awful lot of material and could be very useful for sax players at different stages of development.Or at least a good lecture topic . If nothing else its a good way of killing time (Bird Lives)

          Reply To Post


        18. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          9 years ago

          Re: True or False: Horn= 20% mouthpiece, reed= 50%30%=you

          I agree, very good comments by everyone. There are way too many issues we all have to deal with when peforming. This topic could take years to pursue.

          Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM ICQ