Saxophone Forum


by golferguy675
(600 posts)
18 years ago

Theory for Thought

When I bought Walt Weiskopf's book Around the Horn, it totally changed the way I thought about scales. I just pulled it out again the other day to go through some of the etudes in the back, when I realized there's sort of two ways to think about scales(at least in my convoluted mind). One way is to think of the scale, and every step that is lowered or raised from a major scale. The other way would be how the book presented it. All scales are based off of the major, melodic(jazz) minor, and harmonic minor scales. You can start from the second step of a major scale and play the dorian minor scale. Every step from all three of these three basic scales has it's own. So what I noticed the other day, is that I've blended these two methods. There's still scales where I think 'Ok, b3 and b7', or 'half step whole step half step whole step', yet others I think to myself 'start on the 7th mode of the major scale'. So I was just curious as to how everyone else organizes all of this madness in their minds. One thing I've learned is a tend to think in different ways that most, and it's always interesting to hear other people's thought processes.

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  1. by KingNecron
    (76 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Theory for Thought

    I keep a few things in mind. For one, thirds tend to resolve to sevenths, and vice versa. Ex.-- the F natural (dominant seventh) in G7 resolves to the E (major third) in Cmaj.7 I also play the actual chord tones, especially the extensions. I've gotten pretty good at reading piano chords, transposing them into Bb (for the tenor), and THEN spelling out the chords in my head. This means I can do the chords even faster when I'm playing in my key. I don't get many solos in jazz band being the second tenor player, and usually when I do it'll be funk or blues--pretty straightforward stuff. The best advice is to try to figure out certain "lines" that work or that lead to the next chord. Our jazz teacher here at U. of South Carolina (the real USC) is always telling us to "read ahead" when we have solos. I would highly recommend Bert Ligon's _Jazz Theory Resources_. Bert Ligon is Professor of Jazz Studies at USC in Columbia, SC. The book can be found here: www.amazon.com/gp/product/0634038613/sr=8-2/qid=1146196257/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-1738392-9757453?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Also, this is another book of Ligon's that I am not familiar with, but it looks good: www.amazon.com/gp/product/0793561930/sr=8-1/qid=1146196257/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1738392-9757453?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Good luck with your improv! I hope you'll get even more helpful replies from more knowledgeable readers.

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    1. by RoYrOy
      (51 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Theory for Thought

      Hey golfer guy, can you tell me more about this book and where you got it? It sounds very interesting. I'm probably going to change the subject but anyways, I'm used to practicing solos by learning the chord changes and everything I can do to either play the chord change or connect it, and when it comes to applying it to an actual solo I just play what I hear/feel in my mind. You know trying to break it down to a basic instictive thing, but still searching you know? During an actual solo I rarely think about what exactly I'm going to play theorically, but more musically and sound wise.

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      1. by golferguy675
        (600 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: Theory for Thought

        You could easily order the book online. Try Jamey Aebersold's site at jazzbooks.com. As for thinking while you solo, if you practice this scaler stuff and arpeggios and whatnot, you'll get so familiar with it that you won't have to think about it during improv, it'll just happen, and it will come together with your musical thoughts. That's when the magic happens. ; )

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        1. by RoYrOy
          (51 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Theory for Thought

          Nice, thanks man, I'm really looking forward to it.

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        2. by peter090
          (155 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Theory for Thought

          You can also order them dircetly from the author at www.waltweiskopf.com/books.html Another interesting way to work with scales is to break them into a 7th chord and a triad built on the 9th. For example C Lydian would be CMaj7 DMaj and C dorian would be Cm7 and Dmin. Any 7 note scale can be treated this way and it can give you new melodic ideas.

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        3. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Theory for Thought

          So how would you build the F# alt. scale? F# half dim7 G- ? Haha, just messin around. Seriously though, that's a really cool idea. I can see where that could create some nice ideas in improvisation. I'm always looking for new concepts like that, thanks a lot.

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        4. by peter090
          (155 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Theory for Thought

          If I'm messing around with this idea that is exacly how I'd build the alt scale. The whole idea as you pointed out is to approach the scale in a different way looking for different melodic ideas. Weiskopf has another book called something like "Intervalic Method" that deals with using triad pairs to define tonality. I don't think it is as useful as "Around the Horm" but is an interesting idea that he pretty fully explores in the book.

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        5. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Theory for Thought

          Wow, now that you mention them, I've really gotten away from triad pairs. I used to throw those in sometimes. A really cool place is in What is This Thing Called Love, where you have those alternatin #11 chords, you can play triad pairs off the upper structures, giving you a kind of lydian sounding triad thing. Thanks for inadvertently making me remember that! haha

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