Saxophone Forum


by 9daysfreak
(1 post)
10 years ago

this reed = that reed

Hey! I play on a Selmer S80 mpc. and am currently using Vandoren Java 2.5 reeds. buut . i think i'm need of a change. I have also tried out the Vandoren ZZ #3s. they are all right. now really what i'm looking for. i'm looking to try a Fibercell or Bari does anybody know or can approximate the Java 2.5 to a Fibercell or Bari size? also. optimum ligs. is a good investment? i'm a student. and need to make my decisions wisely. also. mouthpiece wise. i'm looking to get a more jazzier sound without the cost of a metal one. any suggestions?

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  1. by quinsanity
    (2 posts)

    2 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    look at my post below. best thing to do is to find a setup similar to what you have now until you know what comfort fits your style. Remember your sound comes from you, not you piece. your piece just helps you get there. So see what your influences/idols are playing on and find a similar piece. doesn't have to be the same, but something that fits you but ,ight be similar to their sit up.

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  2. by Saxmanrobg
    (1 post)

    10 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    Java 2.5 is close to a medium soft or medium Fibracell. Its in the middle. I use fibracells I highly recomend them. if you get the medium you can adjust it to be as close to the 2.5 java as possible.

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    1. by FISHERMAN
      (31 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: this reed = that reed

      I DO NOT KNOW THE COMPARISON BUT YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE ALEXANDER SUPERIALS THERE WEB SITE HAS A CHART FOR CHANGEOVER. SYD AT SAXQUEST RECOMMENDED TO ME AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK AGAIN. LIG'S I USE LOUIS FRANCOIS LIGS ON ALL MY HORNS. I WOULD LIKE TO TRY A OLEGATURE LIG OUT THOUGH. BOTH ARE A LITTLE HIGHER IN PRICE BUT YOU PAY FOR QUALITY. ALSO DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE OF SOUND YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. GOOD LUCK

      Reply To Post


  3. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
    (23 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    Dude, okay listen. I am a very good saxophonist and my main music is, of course, jazz. You daon't need a metal mouthpiece for jazz. Metal mouthpieces are crap. I have one - a Selmer metal Jazz. The best mouthpieces, regardless of the style you are playing, are hard rubber. I am coming from a alto and soprano players view, though. I don't play tenor too much. I have a Selmer S80 C*. Those are classical mouthpieces and are crap for jazz. The Selmer S90 is completely different than the S80 and offers a much cleaner and brighter sound. Those are some cheap mouthpieces. You can get a new S90 for $73 on www.weinermusic.com with free shipping and no tax. Optimum ligatures are crap, too, man. Vandoren is only good for one thing - reeds! Use Javas! The best! I used those ZZs and found that they are crap. Stay away from plastic or sythetic reeds! They are crap! Stick to good old cane, man. Vandoren Javas. If your are looking for a good ligature get a Rovner Eddie Daniels ligature (at www.weinermusic.com they are $33). Those are real good but I recomend somethin a little more expensive. You should get a Ultimate Ligature (at www.saxquest.com they are $45 in brass and $55 in gold). Go with the gold. The Ultimate Ligatures are the best ive seen. Stay away from the Olegatures - they look coll but sound like crap. I recomend the Ultimate Ligature in gold plating. As for the mouthpieces check Fred Rast mouthpieces. He makes exact copies of vintage mouthpieces and sells them for half of the price!!! His vintage Selmer Solists are to die for. I have and am playing one he made custom for me. It has a exact copy of the old Meyer New York chamber with a shorter facing and is two times as open as the Selmer S80 C* (if that helps). It was made of a Zinner blank (Zinner is a german brand of rubber mouthpiece that make their rubber so condensed that it makes the best sound ever!). I got mine for $175. worth every penny. One of the best jazz mouthpieces out there. Get one of them with an Ultimate Ligature and you have my set up. It is great for jazz. Fred Rast has his own site (www.rastmusic.com). You can contact him from there. I know that the site is under construction and doesn't show any saxophone mouthpieces, but you can email him and set up a date to go play them in person. He has Ultimate ligatures that you can give a try, too. About your reeds, too, don't play them so weak. If you can play a higher strength play them at a higher strength. If you need to go higher than a Vandoren Java 3 or 3 1/2 than your mouthpiece isn't open enough. With a more open mouthpiece and thicker reed your sound will be more full and it will be easier to hit high notes. I hit high A's (the altisimo high A) like nothing now with a full solid sound. The mouthpiece opening helps. Also, if you have a top teeth bite mouth configuration than loosen up that top lip. That will help tons, too. I know it sounds dumb, but it works. A tight upper lip chokes your sound. You will get used to it. Anyway, you have any more questions post em and i'll give you a thorough response. Hope this helped.

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    1. by quinsanity
      (2 posts)

      2 years ago

      Re: this reed = that reed

      Dude, THAT is what might work for you. But it doesn't always work for all players. You need to open your mind,if metal mouthpieces are so horrible for alto. Then tell me why Ernie Watts, Eric Marienthal, David Sanborn, Tom Scott, Miles osland, James Moody all used METAL mouthpieces on their ALTO SAX setups.

       

      Want a bigger sound? Has more to do with the chamber size of your mouthpiece. Your tip opening , more open = brighter. Baffle... higher means more cutting high range.

      If you want to make your sound bigger, start with breathing exercises first, go out a reed sizes or change reed brands, or what best fits YOU and your mouthpiece.

       

      Want altissmos? start practicing blowing over tones. Metal/rubber mouthpieces is not an issue. That's an opinion and preference. Geez I wish I would have seen this 9 years ago, you set that kid up for failure trying to copy your set up. And yes Fred rast pieces are good, but doesn't mean jack if it doesn' work for everyone else. Lataz

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  4. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
    (23 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    Dude, okay listen. I am a very good saxophonist and my main music is, of course, jazz. You daon't need a metal mouthpiece for jazz. Metal mouthpieces are crap. I have one - a Selmer metal Jazz. The best mouthpieces, regardless of the style you are playing, are hard rubber. I am coming from a alto and soprano players view, though. I don't play tenor too much. I have a Selmer S80 C*. Those are classical mouthpieces and are crap for jazz. The Selmer S90 is completely different than the S80 and offers a much cleaner and brighter sound. Those are some cheap mouthpieces. You can get a new S90 for $73 on www.weinermusic.com with free shipping and no tax. Optimum ligatures are crap, too, man. Vandoren is only good for one thing - reeds! Use Javas! The best! I used those ZZs and found that they are crap. Stay away from plastic or sythetic reeds! They are crap! Stick to good old cane, man. Vandoren Javas. If your are looking for a good ligature get a Rovner Eddie Daniels ligature (at www.weinermusic.com they are $33). Those are real good but I recomend somethin a little more expensive. You should get a Ultimate Ligature (at www.saxquest.com they are $45 in brass and $55 in gold). Go with the gold. The Ultimate Ligatures are the best ive seen. Stay away from the Olegatures - they look coll but sound like crap. I recomend the Ultimate Ligature in gold plating. As for the mouthpieces check Fred Rast mouthpieces. He makes exact copies of vintage mouthpieces and sells them for half of the price!!! His vintage Selmer Solists are to die for. I have and am playing one he made custom for me. It has a exact copy of the old Meyer New York chamber with a shorter facing and is two times as open as the Selmer S80 C* (if that helps). It was made of a Zinner blank (Zinner is a german brand of rubber mouthpiece that make their rubber so condensed that it makes the best sound ever!). I got mine for $175. worth every penny. One of the best jazz mouthpieces out there. Get one of them with an Ultimate Ligature and you have my set up. It is great for jazz. Fred Rast has his own site (www.rastmusic.com). You can contact him from there. I know that the site is under construction and doesn't show any saxophone mouthpieces, but you can email him and set up a date to go play them in person. He has Ultimate ligatures that you can give a try, too. About your reeds, too, don't play them so weak. If you can play a higher strength play them at a higher strength. If you need to go higher than a Vandoren Java 3 or 3 1/2 than your mouthpiece isn't open enough. With a more open mouthpiece and thicker reed your sound will be more full and it will be easier to hit high notes. I hit high A's (the altisimo high A) like nothing now with a full solid sound. The mouthpiece opening helps. Also, if you have a top teeth bite mouth configuration than loosen up that top lip. That will help tons, too. I know it sounds dumb, but it works. A tight upper lip chokes your sound. You will get used to it. Anyway, you have any more questions post em and i'll give you a thorough response. Hope this helped.

    Reply To Post AIM


    1. by SaxMan
      (559 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: this reed = that reed

      Second on the metal mouthpieces are crap coment. I have about 3 or 4 and all are just junk...2 I remember are meyers...I want to say that I have a lakey too...honestly cant remember. I dotn give out my setups no more...but I could recomend a few: Meyer Morgan Old brilharts gregories, especially the artists and masters lakeys all rubber piece suggestions (they all make (made) metal pieces too.) I used a fibracell at last concert, my regular reed wore out, and the proper strength wasnt availiable, so I went for the fibracell. I wont use them regularly, that kevlar in it worries me...towed a car once for about 30 miles with a kevlar strap and the tow hooks were worn a little less than a 16th of an inch after that. Dont want kevlar beating my piece. I liked the tone very much, not quite enough power though, had to play aweful hard. And the last thing is that it lasted that one concert and crapped out.

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  5. by senior
    (23 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    I will try to answer your question with out knocking everything else. I play a Yanagisawa alto and use an Optimum ligatures With a yanagisawa #5 mouthpiece. I only use this set up for ballads and classical music, which is not often. My main set up is a Jody Jazz mouthpiece #8 with a Rovner Eddie Daniels ligature. With this set up I play blues and jazz. I find both ligs to be very good, not to sure the Optimum is worth the asking price. I have 3 different strengths of fibracells. I find them to have a very harsh sound. The reeds that work well for me are the Vandoren Java and Rico select Jazz.

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  6. by joles
    (3 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    The Best JAZZ Artists in the WEB www.enzonini.it ENZO NINI, ENZO GRAGNANIELLO, ENZO AVITABILE, MICHAEL BRECKER, STEVE COLEMAN, AL JARREAU, JOHN COLTRANE, MILES DAVIS, STRATA INSTITUTE, MACEO PARKER, JOSHUA REDMAN, GREG OSBY, HERBIE HANCOCK, HOLLY COLE, DUKE ELLINGTON, DEXTER GORDON, DAVE KOZ, DAVE BRUBECK, CHARLIE PARKER, BB KING, BLUES BROTHERS, ENZO NINI RUBBER BAND, VINCENZO NINI JAZZMAN SAX and FLUTE

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    1. by golferguy675
      (600 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: this reed = that reed

      Yeah, I really like Javas and sometimes the Alexander Superials. Stay away from plastic and synthetic reeds, as they were invented by Satan. I have a Francis Louis lig I just got, and love it, and the Optimum isn't too bad either, I like the different plate facings. As far as mouthpieces, I LOVE the old rubber otto links. The new ones aren't that great, right now Meyers are probably better. I use an old Link, and a Ralph Morgan for alto. I also agree that metal pieces are horrible on alto saxophones(unless you want to soud like Kenny G.!!) which you don't want. I do however like them on tenor. I have a Phil Barone Link for my tenor, like what Sonny Rollins had.

      Reply To Post


  7. by Ruben
    (2 posts)

    10 years ago

    Re: this reed = that reed

    I was once told by my saxophone teacher; "If you know which reeds work fine write the book, becuase I'm still waiting on it" I started out Vandorans, went to LaVoz, Vandorans Jazz, Rico, Rico Royal, Hemke, Superial, Superial DC, Fibracell, all from 2 - 3 1/2 strengths. The one thing I found for myself and is usually true to other sax players is you find 1 or 2 REALLY good reeds in a box of 10. The others I have to trim . The only consistant reed that I've found are Superials, thing is they can be consistantly good or consistantly bad. So at the moment I use good reeds from Rico Royal 3, LaVoz medium, and Superials DC 2 to 2 1/2, with my trimmer. You really have to experiment and shop around. Using 3 different brands of different strenghts works for me, but it may not work for anyone else. Metal or rubber moutpieces, for alto I use rubber, for tenor I use a Phil Barone Brass. Again I tried and spent money on different mpcs for my horns, and used what worked for me.

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    1. by saxflores
      (18 posts)

      10 years ago

      Re: this reed = that reed

      Well in regard to your comment about the S80 C* I think it is a great mouthpiece. I use it for my classical setup with a winslow ligature and vandoren 3's and the sound is great. However, it is a classical mouthpiece so there will only be so bright of a sound youll get out of it (if any). Meyers are very good and are an easy switch from that mouthpiece. It handles very well but has a brighter sound. Vandoren javas work well with that too. I hope this helps. Also I found that using javas with a C* gives a rather weak sound.

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      1. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        flores, you wouldnt be interested in buying my S-80 would you? I absolutely hate it. Have been trying for a few years to sell it, but nobody wants it. I have played it maybe 2 and a half hours since I got it a year and a half ago. It will come in its original box with a new mouthpiece patch. (I use simple green to clean the glue off, takes a few weeks for the taste to get off it...) 70 bucks, plus shipping. Make a good backup piece. it is practically new...only very slight wear from my rovner lig, hard to see unless you have it under a light.

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        1. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
          (23 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          Dude, I hear you. I hate my S-80, too. But why would Flores buy your used one for 70 plus shipping when you can get a new one at www.weinermusic.com for 73 with free shipping and you can select the tip opening that you want, instead of refacing it.

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        2. by Spike
          (248 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          okay, here be da shiznat(i love talking like that): berg larson rubber 90/1 M Rico select jazz filed 3Hard or 4soft olegature, or just the metal band it somes with. the oleg's more mellow and really focused, and the metal's more edgy but a little spread. Also, mr. brecker i'm sorry you have one of those selmer jazz mouthpeices. they are probably the worst thing ever made. come to think of it.... metal is crap. except for sugal. those are good.

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        3. by Saxman2200
          (64 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          I wish you had said that to my face, I would have slapped the hell out of you. Anyone who say's a rico reed is "the shiznat" needs to get their "shiznat" striat. I got stuck on rico reeds at one piont and I broke reeds on purpose just to get rid of them. Actually some of them sounded better when they hit the wall then when I was playing on them. I am expirementing with different reeds and working on them in different ways but I tell you I would not play on a rico again if you payed me. I would also not advertise them to a fellow sax player in need. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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        4. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
          (23 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          I know that metal mouhpieces are crap. I am the first one to come out and say it loud and clear in this forum. Yeah, sadly I do have a Selmer USA Jazz metal - got it a long ass time ago when I was stupid and trying to follow those dumbasses that were like "metal mouthpieces are what you have to have if you want to play jazz" - now a day I just beat up on guys like that (lol), but if the guy wants a metal mouthpiece and I can't stop him he should get a Selmer Paris Metal Jazz. I meant to say that - not the USA model. This guy didnt want to spent much, right? $190 on www.weinermusic.com for that Selmer Paris metal. If he is willing to get something expensive he should get either a Phil Barone or a Dave Gaurdala - preferably the Dave Gaurdala. This is from a tenor point of view and I still don't use metal on tenor. I use hard rubber on all my saxes. Sopranino, Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and have been using a school horn baritone. My current set up is (on alto - my main) a Keilwerth EX90, a Fred Rast custom hand made, Ultimate Ligature, and Vandoren Java Reeds.

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        5. by Spike
          (248 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          i didn't mean to make fun of you at all, i was to console you. I have one too. i got it when i didn't know anything about bari mouthpieces.

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        6. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          Oh, BTW, rovner ligs are bad. They seriously deaden your sound. Use metal lig for jazz.

          Reply To Post


        7. by SaxMan
          (559 posts)

          10 years ago

          Re: this reed = that reed

          Damn I had no idea anyone sodle them for that cheap. Though weiner music probably sells this wholesale crap. The list price is (or was) 130, so I took 30 percent, which is roughly what you would get at a store, and took 20 more off that for its light use. Spike, now that I see this, I will have to consider it, though this is for alto - you play tenor dont you?

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      2. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        look, keith dawg, i'll give you 20 bucks for it.

        Reply To Post


      3. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I look at the the S80 C* as a nice step-up HS concert band/ Community Band piece. They blow easy, are made well, and have a reasonably centered tone. For serious work, they're a little to bright perhaps for Classical playing and lack projection for jazz. Metal vs Ebonite/Hard rubber is mostly a personal choice. The real advantage in metal is in how well it keeps a facing compared to rubber and plastic. Metal MPCs vibrate more freely (a feature I find annoying) and while doing so may give the player a false sense of projection. A larger amount of vibration is allowed to transfer from the chamber back at the player to give the player this impression. That said, by MPC of choice for tenor is a selmer metal classical E. It's the only metal piece I've ever been able to tollerate

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      4. by tri-tonesub
        (8 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Why does everyone seem to limit their experimentation to only, "Jazz reeds." By this I mean, Java, V16, ZZ's, Rico Jazz, etc. I know these satisfy many people's tastes, but the majority of sax players seem to think that it ends here. I used to think that way, until my teacher had me trying like Hemke 3's and Vandoren Blue Box 3's. These don't only have to be used for strickly classical saxophone playing. Regular reeds may surprise you.

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      5. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        i've used blue box, la voz, hemke/lurie, rico royal, marca, excel, alexander classique(or whatever those are,) and they really don't do it for me like a jazz reed, even in concert band. but you're right, they all work well.

        Reply To Post


      6. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Well I confess, I have been using candoren hand selects, at first they all played nice, but now only 4 do out of this first box. I am absolutely disgusted with vandoren and once I finish off these last 10 im through with them. Btu the o0ens that do play, oh boy do they ever play!!!!

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      7. by tri-tonesub
        (8 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Spike- Ya, I know they are not for everybody. I just think they deserve a shot---It's good to hear that you tried out a bunch of different reeds though. There are so many different kinds out there. It's frustrating, but fascinating as well. SaxMan- I agree...the Vandorens can play great, but as you said, they are very inconsistent. Now I just buy harder reeds and file them to my liking. Even by doing this one comes across reeds that are basically unmanageable. Do you know of any consistent reeds that are worth trying out? What have you played on in the past?

        Reply To Post


      8. by saxooo
        (1 post)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Maybe mother nature dosen't grow good cane anymore. I've heard people complain about bad reeds in all the brands. Alexanders seem to have the fewest complaints although they seem to be the least popular brand. I guess there's no such thing as a really 'good' reed. If they are all poor then why not buy Rico orange box reeds. The're at least as bad as the other brands except their'cheaper'.

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      9. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        alexander would be so bad off if the ass hole didnt require a minimum order of 20 boxes each.

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      10. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I have heard nothing but good about Alexanders. Maybe they arent so popular because they are so damned expensive. I just bought a box of five Alexander Superials from wwbw for $11.50. I havent tried them yet. Anybody try em? How do they play in general? How do they play compared to Vandoren Javas?

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      11. by jzzsax9
        (4 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        sorry to bring up old matters but for classical its blatantly obvious that you would never even think about playing a metal mouthpiece but for jazz tenor i see absolutely no reason why your calling all metal mouthpieces crap. i couldnt name all the jazz tenor players that play on metals or played on metals. you must be very ignorant if you would ever generalize metal mouthpieces like that.

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      12. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I don't know exactly what mr. brecker meant, but when I said it, i meant most players can't handle a matal mouthpiece. they take such a rediculous amount of controll that i only use mine in rock or pep situations, where cutting through, and edge are needed 1,000,000%.

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      13. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Oh is that so? note I am a different person than who made the comment. Tell me of a good metal mouthpiece. Otto link is a joke, the master link is a bit better off than the rest. I played on 2 berg larsen 110/0's. neither were as good as my 2 rubber jazz pieces. Played a claude lakey once, it was just annoying, too bright. 2 meyers, complete joke. runyon has got to be the biggest joke second to taiwan manufactured saxes. (Other than cannonball.) I think the last metal I played was a dukoff, not sure. I remember that it was out of control, never quieter than mf and jarred my brain up against my skull when I played it. I could name quite a few jazz sax players that dont play on metals. Sure there are good metals out there, but the only ones I know of are 800 bucks and come with a year and a half wait.

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      14. by jzzsax9
        (4 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        if otto links are a joke then why did john coltrane play one for years??? one of the most advanced players of his time. i can't imagine him playing it as a joke. maybe you just havent built up chops for metal mouthpieces. you cant just pick one up and try to play it and expect to be great on it. i agree with you on meyers but if you can't control a joke of a mouthpiece(some of the metals you've talked about) then maybe you should work on your support and try again or go down a few facings (im not trying to offend you by saying any of this just disscussing). it also depends on what type of rubber mouthpiece you are using. if you own an old new york meyer then of course no otto link or burg larsen is going to be better than it. its a completely different breed.

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      15. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        john coltrane went through hundreds upon hundreds, maybe even thousands of otto links to find one worth a dang. He would go to this store in new york and buy 150-200 of them at a time. Go through find one that played the best and have it refaced. When he still wasnt happy, he went out and bought another couple hundred. My mouthpiece is not a vintage meyer, I dont have 1500 bucks for an alto mouthpiece. My chops are fine. I play on a tip opening bigger than john coltrane did and with number 2 reeds. I have all the control any one could hope to have. I had no problem controlling that dukoff or whatever it was. The piece it self was out of control. It was just too much. Would have made a fairly nice loud piece, but I got my own thing for less that is louder than any other piece in my state...the dealer had about 5 of those dukoffs or whatever that mystery piece was in stock. Maybe it was ment for an older, darker, smaller bore sax. MY III plays nicer than anything else I have ever played, incredible ease, it wouldnt be the first piece that didnt work very good on it, but this thing was just terrible!!!

        Reply To Post


      16. by jzzsax9
        (4 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        if coltrane went through so many otto link mouthpieces as you say why.... because he obviously thought otto's had some potential. otherwise why waste your time or money(i have a hard time believing he went through hundreds even thousands of otto's). also metal mouthpieces at that time were very hard and almost pointless to get refaced(just as a side note).when you say too much... too much of what? too much air? i dont know anything about this dukoff but it sounds like it was the bundy II of metals. also whats your set up if you were in a jazz setting combo or big band?

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      17. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        The new links aren't anywhere as close to as good as the old ones.

        Reply To Post


      18. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Possibly because of his dental problem? The Otto link may have had a unique dimension that allowed for him to double lip more comfortably. I can tell you one thing, if you have to go through over 10 mouthpieces, I would lose all hope of potential. And anyways, trane's tone sucks. I don’t listen to him to hear what he sounds like, I listen for the music. When I say too much, I mean too much sound, too brash, too piercing. I am not even sure if it was a dukoff or not, but I want to say that it was. And about that Bundy II remark. The Bundy is without a doubt one of the best student model horns you can get. It has lasted over 50 years, longer than any other sax; George Bundy did something right when he designed it. I absolutely can’t stand the Yamaha student model. The 21 is good, but this 23 sucks. I can't fathom why anyone would push these. They have such an annoying sound, all edgy and bright, with little warmth. And they teach the student bad technique. (Bad in terms of the official book.) Pres could play the way he did fine, but could you play like that and sound just as good?) The selmers and keilwerths are far superior to them. I don’t know about the conns as the only ones I have ever played were used for a bit, certain damage could have been done; this was before I did any repairs. The reason most people think of the Bundy II as a piece of crap is because they are without a doubt THE toughest, most durable horn you can get. A lot of people buy them for marching in which they get torn and tattered. Then they sell them to some crappy place like a pawn shop or an incapable shop. With the pawn shop, they do no repairs, and with the store, the repairs outweigh the instrument so they do a PC job and resell it. Absolutely disgusting. 2 businesses in my town were like that. I don’t give out my setup, to me; it is the job of the player to develop his own sound. I will tell you though, I sound similar to Stork, just not gay. My sound is a little more penetrating and much more powerful and wider. It is also a tad warmer. The material of the mouthpiece matters very little. Whoever tells you the material doesn’t matter at all is a complete idiot. That is like saying a recording studio is just as good as a gymnasium. That said, it is the metal that makes them suck, it is the maker. For some reason they just can’t make them the same. For a high baffle mouthpiece, making it out of metal would do close to nothing, probably not even noticeable, which makes those guardala mouthpieces such a joke. You can get a strathon for less than half and it will do more than the guardala. For lower baffle mouthpieces, the effect will be greater, but the point of a low baffle piece is to be dark, the metal will brighten it slightly which is an oxymoron. This is why the Selmer Paris metal classic piece is lined with rubber. So what is the point of a metal piece? I am still trying to figure out. There are good metal pieces out there, but if you made the same piece out of rubber, the difference would be negligible and could be quite easily compensated for with a slight elevation of the baffle or choking down the chamber slightly. Not to mention, if you have a woops with a metal, there is absolutely no hope that it will ever be the same again. It could get close, perhaps even close enough that you couldn’t tell, but it could also play marginally forever after a very expensive fix. Rubbers can be easily fixed, and refaced if you decide you need a bigger tip or chamber or a lower baffle whatever, quite easy to do. And all this crap about rubbers not holding a facing, I have a mouthpiece from the late 30's that had the hell played out of it, there was some calcium on the floor for one thing and another, much of the piece is brown with the reactions in the air. I got a chart for it and measured it, only a very slight deviation was noted and that was in the middle of the facing and was probably included from the factory.

        Reply To Post


      19. by jromain
        (20 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Selmer metal classic lined with rubber? Well, no, they are not. I've played many, and while I stick with the S-80 C* for classical alto (as do Steve Jordheim, John Sampen, Debra Richtmeyer, and a host of other world class concert soloists), the notion that metal is "crap" would undoubtedly be quite startling news to Marcel Mule and Fred Hemke, both of whom use(d) metal throughout their careers, and Jean-Marie Londeix, who used one for much of his prior to switching to the S-80. It might be informative for some of you to reed the following article by master mouthpiece craftsman Ralph Morgan regarding the impact of the material on the sound: go to

        Reply To Post


      20. by jromain
        (20 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Sorry about the annoying html tags...that's what I get for a quick cut-and-paste.

        Reply To Post


      21. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        well MAYBE I am thinking of something else, but I know you are. This classic model m/p is way after mule's time he would have played a metal solist. Yeah, like anyone is going to read that long ass article. and its in a crappy format too, dont know why some one couldnt just retype it, would take all of a day. But anyways, I already told everyone that the difference is small, sometimes unnoticeable so theres no need. If they want to keep thinking that metal is an absolutely fantastic material to make mouthpieces out of they can go ahead. I will be laughing at you. Nothing is more funny than some dumb kid that thinks he has to have a metal mouthpiece to have the best jazz mouthpiece there is. the best jazz mouthpiece you can get is one of those 2 grand meyers. Anyways, this discussion is about real people, not mule and hemke. sooner or later you will grow up and realize that metal is not as good a meterial as some think it is. If it works fine, but if you found another rubber piece that played slightly better, you didnt buy the metal because of the way it plays.

        Reply To Post


      22. by ShadowSlicers
        (5 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        "I have all the control any one could hope to have." Saxman, you know a little modisty goes a long way. Just keep that in mind. As a tenor player I won't say that metal mps are worthless, but I will say this, they aren't needed for jazz, but as a jazz tenor player I have looked at them and for some people they are great things. Your sound is a personal thing, and how good it is subjective. As a result I thing we can guide younger players into the right direction they have to set the goals and make the choice, I really don't think we should pass our bias on just are good experiences with set-ups/horns. So, I've gotten good sound our of some Otto links, the question was how much power and control do you want, and which mpc will be easiest to get your sound from?

        Reply To Post


      23. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I do. I can go about 30 cents either way on each note. I can over blow every note on the sax up an octave if I want to, but it wont pop up when I do not intend it to, suhc as high A down to D. I can l keep my sound down at pppp if I want to with no effort, or I can keep it up at fff with no effort. I can go up to about fffff when I want to, but it is some work to keep it in tune. Well, I wouldnt call it bias. I have found noting but superiority in my rubber mouthpieces over all the metals that I have played that are supposedly the best. I have 3 absolute killer jazz pieces, I now have 2 metals that are junk, used to have a third, though I might have sold it cause I cant find it anymore....tried to sell it to soemone yesterday. The third was considerably better, I will call it slightly better than my modern day brilhart ebolin. The reason for metal is all marketing, if there was no such thing as marketing, neither would there be metal mouthpieces. Flores, have you ever played a vintage meyer on bari? Thats what my teacher uses, it wasnt even an expensive one, only 400 dollars, though he without a doubt has the best bari sound I have ever heard. Better than mulligan. Very crisp and sharp. normally baris just sound kind of dull.

        Reply To Post


      24. by ShadowSlicers
        (5 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I couldn't let this slide. Saxman I don't doubt you have good control but to claim its perfect is far from realistic. At VCU, the school I'm shooting for, the jazz department had graduated some gret horn players in the past few years. One can play any work without touching his octave key just with overtones. He has great control and near perfect pitch. At least that is what everyone says about him, and from what I've heard they are right. Moral? He never brags about it but he's one of the best players to come out in a long time and really doesn't care to brag. I mean if you really are great, as my teacher always said, "let the horn say and your fingers play it, otherwise keep your mouth shut." He was fairly blunt when he had a point to get accross.

        Reply To Post


      25. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Control is a different thing than being a good player.

        Reply To Post


      26. by ShadowSlicers
        (5 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I'd say they would go hand in hand. The guy I'm talking about has great control. He didn't even think about dynamics, he had them, his control came to the point of mastering multiphonics and overtones, that was my point.

        Reply To Post


      27. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Any player can play concertino da camera. A good player can make it sound absolutely striking. Anyone can do altissimo. I hit my first F on the summer vacation of 8th grade. I showed a 7th grader earlier this year how to hit a double G, he hit it after aobut 20 minutes of work, but over all, he isnt too great of a player. He thinks that loud is better so really damn loud is a lot better. I can see what you are saying, but god dang, in 6th grade when you wer still learning, all those squeaks you heard for muliphonics.

        Reply To Post


      28. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Any player can play concertino da camera. A good player can make it sound absolutely striking. Anyone can do altissimo. I hit my first F on the summer vacation of 8th grade. I showed a 7th grader earlier this year how to hit a double G, he hit it after aobut 20 minutes of work, but over all, he isnt too great of a player. He thinks that loud is better so really damn loud is a lot better. I can see what you are saying, but god dang, in 6th grade when you wer still learning, all those squeaks you heard were muliphonics.

        Reply To Post


      29. by golferguy675
        (600 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Saxman, I realize this was an old post, but holy shit dude. Oh wow, you can do over tones up an octave, that is not hard to do. It makes for very easy altissimo. 30 cents either way on each note? That is horrible. You should AT LEAST be able to go a half or whole step either way without trying too much. Quit trying to sound like a jazz player, because you aren't; you're a classical player. John Coltrane's tone sucks? I can't even come up with an response to adequately express how retarded you are for saying that.

        Reply To Post


      30. by A-Trane73
        (2 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        First of all, material does make a difference in the performance, tone and response of a mouthpiece. SaxMan it would be worthwhile for you to read the artical by Ralph Morgan mentioned above. It is a very informative and enlightening artical and you may learn something. I do agree that on some levels hard rubber mouthpieces are better than metal. I play primarily hard rubber for jazz on alto, tenor and soprano. But, I do have a great Barone brass piece I play on tenor occasonally. It is hard to get that focused power you need to cut through a 10 piece ampliphied band on hard rubber. Secondly, Links are definitly not junk. Not all Links are good, but but when you find a good one they are great. I had a really good 6* link for tenor that I sold and I have been kicking myself ever since I let it go. Thirdly, SaxMan, What is up with you? Is everything some sort of ego battle with you? I have read several of the forums you participate in and you always have some brash, blanket, unthought out statement to make and plenty of insults to be dealt to everyone. Forums are a place for exchanging information and ideas. Not a place to talk smack like a playground basket ball game. I do agree with another statement made early to the affect that you should shut your mouth and let the horn speak for your abilities. Some of the best saxophonists I have ever met are also some of the humblest people you will meet. The longer I study music and play saxophone the more I realize how much I have to learn.

        Reply To Post


      31. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I dont need to read that long ass article. I already know that the material does make some difference - Like I have posted god knows how many times - perhaps a hundred and fity times. Thirdly no one excapes my wrath. noone. If I have something to tell someone I tell them it. I can think of only 1 instance in which I shielded a good friend of mine from something I thought - and that is both complicated and personal - more so the latter. I dont just go saying I am the all (in)famous prodigious sax player from high school. Whenever I - what is picked up as "brag" I have a point to make or a person annoying me that I want to piss off. The most forum post thing was NOT bragging, nor proving a point or pissing someone off. Am I a great sax player? no. I only consider myself most audaciously above the rest.

        Reply To Post


      32. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Sugal super gonz II. If you can control a Bb clarinet with a 4 1/2 reed, you can really do something with that. At the same time, it only fits in some music. It's good, but not worth the money. Oh, and i made the same comment.

        Reply To Post


      33. by saxflores
        (18 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        In reference to all the link bashing I'd like to share my experience with you. A couple years ago I cut a cd with a quartet I was in and 2 of the songs were jazz ones. I was on bari and I used my otto link metal 9* on it and the sound was fat as all. Great mouthpiece- I'd never use anything else.

        Reply To Post AIM


      34. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        sorry, but you must be some kind of dumbass, right? Shit, man, did you even read everything i said? I didnt generalize shit. I said that coming from an alto point of view metal mouthpieces are crap (asuming this guy is an alto player). Dont matter how awesome your chops are metal just doesnt play as well as hard rubber. For tenor metal is better, but really expensive. If i were to get a metal i would get a Dave Gaurdala. Those are awesome, but they are like $450. I never said that in general metal mouthpieces were crap. I have awesome chops and have tried a lot of mouthpieces. No metal mouthpiece has ever stood up to my standard, but on Tenor the Gaurdalas are the best.

        Reply To Post AIM


      35. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        woops. this wasnt meant for you, Flores (just in case you thought it was). This previous deal was to jzzsax over there talking shit.

        Reply To Post AIM


      36. by chiamac
        (586 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        in reply to A-Train73 quote"Secondly, Links are definitly not junk. Not all Links are good, but but when you find a good one they are great. I had a really good 6* link for tenor that I sold and I have been kicking myself ever since I let it go." I have a otto link 8* Florida super tone master... and it's the last thing I would think about selling. I love it. Shit I even loved it back before I knew it's history, or what it's worth. Now I love it even more!=) as for metal vs plastic, it's just personal taste. I love my Otto Link to death, but that's just because I got lucky and hvae a really good one that's easy to play (metal piece) As for alto I'm still searching. I use a selmer s80 E for classical/band stuff, then I have a beechler s5l (which I need new reeds for) and a brilharq special (don't know where I got that) but I'm still searching for something like my otto link for alto. anyway I rambled on, I feel sorry for the person who read all that.=)

        Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM


      37. by A-Trane73
        (2 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I have also been seaching for a good alto mouthpiece lately. I tried a Beechler and did not like it. To bright for me. I just bought a Morgan Excalibur 7 that is great. Solid tone that is not to bright and not to dark.

        Reply To Post


      38. by jzzsax9
        (4 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        what kind of support do you have for "from an alto point of view metal mouthpieces are crap"? your the dumbass here i could list tons of altos players that play metals. charlie parker played on a metal. Paquito D'riviera is a great example he sounds amazing on metal...you should check him out, see if dont agree with me then. i dont think i have to say anything about otto links. not all of them are great but when you find one that is you should hold on to it. also to be quite honest we could agrue all day about which is better metals or hard rubber and it wont do a bit of good. but if all your going to do is make stuff up then i suggest you keep your mouth shut.

        Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM


      39. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        You need to listen, man. These arguements are being started because i havent been explaining myself in full. I listen to Paquito D'Rivera and like his sound, but it isnt the best alto sound - i would say it is up there though. The list goes on forever. Charlie Parker did play on a metal, but he played on a bunch of hard rubber mouthpieces, too. He played whatever he could get his hands on. Metal mouthpieces serve a purpose. I dont think, on alto, that metal is an everyday jazz piece. You can't use metal in every jazz style. It just doesnt sound right. The only good metal alto pieces are Sugal. Those are too expensive to buy and not use everyday though. I gave the phrase "on alto all metals are crap" as some advice toward buying a new everyday piece - on alto i dont see why gettin a sugal (if you are a little rich boy with the cash) would hinder your performance in electronic jazz fusion. I play on a Fred Rast custom hand made mouthpiece based off of a Meyer New York - you know...one of the vintage ones - not that shitty reissue. Sure i would get a sugal but i dont have the cash. i but all of my stuff - horns, mouthpieces, ligatures, reeds, music, cds, all my stuff. I dont have the cash yet to just buy a sugal. I would like to retract my comment about metal mouthpieces and alter it so that everybody truly understands what I was trying to say. ok here it goes. On alto metal mouthpieces are not the best for an every day jazz piece. They are awesome for electronic jazz fusion but not everyday combo playing. When the piece is too bright the sound blends too much with the brass. You got to have a beter contrast in characteristics of sound between the brass and woodwinds. I would actually like to thank you for pointing out the flaw that i have with not explaining stuff in full. I promise to try not to do that anymore because it gets people confused and causes arguements.

        Reply To Post AIM


      40. by jazaddict
        (41 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        If you're interested in trying a synthetic reed, I'd recommend Hahn. You can read about them at users.frii.com/saxalley/picks.html I described my experience with them in greater detail in the "Legere" thread fromthis forum.

        Reply To Post


      41. by 5fingercurveball
        (11 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        I feel it's my duty to stand up both for links AND playing metal mouthpieces on alto. I had a meyer 5 for a year or two, then as I started to actually get serious about playing, I looked into metal mouthpieces. I was both curious and looking for greater projection, and my teacher said metal was the way to go if I wanted that. I ended up buying a metal otto link STM 7* - what I didn't know at the time was that those pieces were much more subdued than the meyers!! All I could hear was air when I played, and I hated it at first. Then I got softer reeds and feel in love with the deep, rich tone that the Link provided and that I could never get from those damn nasally, squeaking meyers. So lets not make blanket statements when it comes to artistry, the concept in it of itself is hypocritical. And how is it that you high school kids on this forum can afford to have more than one horn, 5 different mouthpieces, and customized everything??? I could only afford an intermediate american selmer alto after my bundy, and even that was a huge stretch! You rich kids make me sick!

        Reply To Post


      42. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        you are a complete moron, you show more ignorance probably than any one else that I have ever seen on this board. i am not rich, nor I am sure, neither is caleb. or brecker brothers. We all work. You seem to have a problem maging money, see, I don't. I fill my truck up with diesel once every 3 and a half weeks, change the oil every time, work 40 hours a week, and don't spend it unnecessarily. I hate people that can't manage their money bitching about someone getting next to minimum wage is rich. If I was rich, I would have over a hundred saxes, at least 40 or 50 cars, 4 boats, each over a hundred grand, except one, a kenworth to pull my stuff, water craft, a bunch of them for ocean applications, lake applications and for friends to ride, about 15 fly rods for different applications a 2000 square foot house or so with a 3500 square foot garage, a library containing some of the rarest compositions in saxophone history as well as the greatest, some work by bernini, raphael, davinici etc etc etc etc etc. You irresponsible adults that have a 15 year advantage on responsible 16 year olds make me sick.

        Reply To Post


      43. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Good go, Saxman. You really said it.

        Reply To Post AIM


      44. by Kitch22
        (98 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Hey, guys. I am thinking of purchasing an Olegature for my alto. I am pretty sure that it doesn't come with a cap, am I right? Well in that case, would a Rovner cap fit on it? If not, what could I buy that would??

        Reply To Post


      45. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        okay, two things: one) i am not rich. here's what i have: a keilwerth tenor. yeah, my dad helped me out a ton with this. why? because i'm a frikkin music major!! i have 3 mouthpeices. a c* and berg i paid for(because i have a job, and place value on music) as well as a brilhart which was a christmas present(it's all i got that year too) i have a bundy alto. i paid $92 for it, and got a meyer, once again out of pocket. i have a clairnet, which my dad purchased for me in third grade for $100. and i have my vito, which my dad got for me in 7th, under $700. so yeah, my dad helped out. because i was spoiled? heck no. it's because music was, and is my main interest and hobby. and yeah, my keilwerth cost more than everything else together, both what i paid for and didn't. and all for nothing? no, i'm a music major!!! it's a good investment!! so lay off. and definately give BBAG and keith a break. keith orked his tail off for his series II and BBAG has an ex90. jeez. number two: no, olegs don't come with caps. the rovner might, i just use the one that came with my berg. and i think the alto meyer uses #2, if that helps.

        Reply To Post


      46. by 5fingercurveball
        (11 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        If you're going to attempt to build a coherent, strong, and mature argument, Saxman, name calling is only going to do you more harm than good. Clearly you resort to name calling because you don't want to hold intelligent dialogue, you just want to berate people and intimidate them. It gives your argument no strength and makes you look immature. Secondly I'm going to clear up my age - I'm 19, not in my 30s like you'd expect. Although I'm barely older than you are, I'm going to impart to you a quick story that'll hopefully clear up your superiority complex; which you have so copiously demonstrated on this board. I was 16 and going for my first jazz district audition. I had just started learning how to improv that year, but I thought with my technique and sound, there was no way I could be beat. I had what I thought was a perfect audition and I was sure I had made it. Obviously I didn't. That was a big blow to my ego, and I realized that I really wasn't taking music very seriously - rather I was just riding the wave of successes I had been having up to that point. That next summer I did some major shedding, and I felt myself improve - the first time I ever could say that. I ended up making it the next year, and I have been practicing harder ever since. My band teacher, horrible as he was, gave us one interesting tidbit - the more you practice, the more you realize what you can't do. You can take this as cynical, as he meant it, or you can be empowered by it, which is how I took it. The more I learn jazz theory, the more I find out what I need to practice, which is a beautiful thing. Now you can go ahead and nitpick at my syntax or scoff at my story, frankly I don't care - again, it'll only make you look immature. The message is loud and clear - there's no room for ego in jazz or anything for that matter. If you want to be a great musician, like all of us on this forum, you can't just practice sax, you gotta practice humility.

        Reply To Post


      47. by 5fingercurveball
        (11 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        By the way I wasn't intending to attack anyone with my "rich kids" comment. It's my way of venting my frustration of the fact that I don't have, nor do my parents have, any money to spend on major purchases like saxophones. Basically all of the money we're earning is going toward my expensive liberal arts college. Since I love both music and the world of academia, I feel this is a worthwhile investment. So I formally apologize to anyone I offended on this board. We've all got different priorities and situations, and I salute those who work hard and can devote their time (and money) to music.

        Reply To Post


      48. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        yeah, we went for the keilwerth a couple years ago with the assumption of putting money into college. otherwise i'd probably still be playing the vito

        Reply To Post


      49. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        curveball, I wasn't name calling weiner head (To quote my best friend's brother.) Look up the word moron and ignorant - I was merely stating fact. Powerful words, when you grow up, screw being a theory-jazz musician, you should become an orator. Tell me, which school are you going to? because, if your money situation is as bad as you say, you certainly don't save that kind of money up. You just don't save up a sum of over a hundred thousand dollars, and especially not in a time span of lets say, 5 years, lets say you knew where you were going since you were 15. or in most cases, began to consider the future then.

        Reply To Post


      50. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: this reed = that reed

        Good story. Every musician should expect to be humbled on a regular basis. If being "shown up" causes someone embarassment or a sense of failure, then music performance should probably not be the primary focus in their life. If you accept those moments as opportunities, then you are on the right track.

        Reply To Post


      51. by chiamac
        (586 posts)

        10 years ago

        because I'm bored...

        yay! I just got up, and I'm bored, so yeah...=) [If you're going to attempt to build a coherent, strong, and mature argument, Saxman, name calling is only going to do you more harm than good. Clearly you resort to name calling because you don't want to hold intelligent dialogue, you just want to berate people and intimidate them. It gives your argument no strength and makes you look immature.] I like this guy... seems to make sense so far. [Secondly I'm going to clear up my age - I'm 19, not in my 30s like you'd expect. Although I'm barely older than you are, I'm going to impart to you a quick story that'll hopefully clear up your superiority complex; which you have so copiously demonstrated on this board.] Oh shit! They just called SaxMan a name... Things must be getting personal now. [I was 16 and going for my first jazz district audition. I had just started learning how to improv that year, but I thought with my technique and sound.... ] (and the rest of the story which I don't feel like quoting because somoene can just page up and see it) Good story, and there are some good lessions in there. I'm happy that you figured out what needed to be done from that point on. Most people at that age would just sit around and be pissed, but you did something about it. On the other hand, I don't like seeing a "I, and me" in every sentence, makes the person sound full of themself. I'm not trying to point fingers, but it's just my presonal preference. [My band teacher, horrible as he was, gave us one interesting tidbit - the more you practice, the more you realize what you can't do. You can take this as cynical, as he meant it, or you can be empowered by it, which is how I took it. The more I learn jazz theory, the more I find out what I need to practice, which is a beautiful thing. ] someone write that down in stone. In fact, I bet that was one of the 12 commandments, but god only had room to write 10. Intresting that "Thou shall not shall not pirate others properity" was number 12... [Now you can go ahead and nitpick at my syntax or scoff at my story, frankly I don't care - again, it'll only make you look immature. The message is loud and clear - there's no room for ego in jazz or anything for that matter. If you want to be a great musician, like all of us on this forum, you can't just practice sax, you gotta practice humility.] I'm sorry but you seem to take him too personally. Yes, I did the same but then I found out that arguing with him dosn't get anywhere. Now I just do it for fun, which it is!=) in fact what does arguing on a internet board do? [By the way I wasn't intending to attack anyone with my "rich kids" comment. It's my way of venting my frustration of the fact that I don't have, nor do my parents have, any money to spend on major purchases like saxophones. Basically all of the money we're earning is going toward my expensive liberal arts college. Since I love both music and the world of academia, I feel this is a worthwhile investment.] school is a worthwhile investment and familys have to sacrifice to put a child though. However, I don't want to hear you complain about not being about to buy a nice sax, or how expensive school is. You made the choice to go to this school, no one forced you. So why bring up in such detail why you can't buy a sax, or where all the money is going? You made the bed, now sleep in it. (I'm making the assumption you're going to a private school) Why not go to a good state school? I know a few that have really good music programs (around my area anyway) and I'm sure there are a lot of good ones around the country. It would allow you and your family to save some money for other intrests. [So I formally apologize to anyone I offended on this board. We've all got different priorities and situations, and I salute those who work hard and can devote their time (and money) to music.] I salute those who work hard with what they have and strive to make it with less than those who have the time and money to put into something. I also have respect for the people who do this as a hobby and do it because they love it. ---------------------------------------------------- SaxMan (yes I'm bored) [Tell me, which school are you going to? because, if your money situation is as bad as you say, you certainly don't save that kind of money up. You just don't save up a sum of over a hundred thousand dollars, and especially not in a time span of lets say, 5 years, lets say you knew where you were going since you were 15. or in most cases, began to consider the future then.] a lot of parents start saving for college soon after their child is born. Saving 100k over 15-18 years isn't impossable. However, most familys just take out loans, or make the kids take them out. Saying that familys only start saving in the last 5 years or something is obsurd. It's like saying that people only save for retirement 10 years before they retire (or something) when in fact for most people that process starts as soon as they start working. but maybe your family (SaxMan) is differnt and dosn't have to worry about college for you. Actually, I don't know why you're thinking about going, since you prove to us day/night that you knwo everything there is to know about music, sax, and other things... why even go to college?

        Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM


      52. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Bored...

        I recollect that SaxMan, in a previous posting, informed us that college was unnecessary as he was going to open his own music store or repair shop or something along those lines. Of course, matters of business and tax law are downloadable from the internet, so why bother paying for college and listening to some professor who teaches because they can't execute in the real world... Oh, yes. And remember that SaxMan doesn't care what anyone thinks of him - only his self-perception is important. Yup - I see a thriving business in the making there... Well - gotta go dust off my Master's Degree diploma and get back to my six figure career which supports my five figure hobby... Speaking of "Bored" - anyone remember the "Young Ones" episode of that title?

        Reply To Post


      53. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        andy, stop writing such long posts. shorten that to 50 words or less immediately! has anyone noticed how short of att... hey look! a dog with a puffy tail!

        Reply To Post


      54. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        So what you are saying is that, because he is 19, his parents have been saving every single extra dime for 19 years? lets say they make 100 grand combined, the cost of living and taxes and all that at 35. His parents have been putting away 65 grand for 19 years and he can't afford a cheap pro sax? How did you do your saving? most kids are dumb and only even think about the future, their junior year, start looking at prerequisites the end of sophomore, and start saving for their new car and its modifications freshmen year, college, the middle of junior year. And who says you ahve to pay for college? I could get 2500 dollars a semester without trying do to ethnicity. I have been approved for an 18 grand scholarship before after screwing around on fastweb, lying aobut my age in the middle of the night (2:00 am) when I was 13. You can get scholarships from universities and not even go to them. (on occaision.) I said I am not going to college. I never said I wasn't going to any school of any sort. I am going to 2 different tech schools, one to start my shop with, another for a career in case my shop doesn't pan out. on an unrealted matter, caleb, check your email.

        Reply To Post


      55. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        SaxMan, Once *again* you're showing that you don't know what you're talking about ------------------------------------------------------------------------ lets say they make 100 grand combined, the cost of living and taxes and all that at 35. His parents have been putting away 65 grand for 19 years and he can't afford a cheap pro sax? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- That's an unlikely generalization to use to try to force your argument. Much less than half of all couples combine for 100k or more annually. At a 100,000k income, tax burded plus cost of living easily exceeds 35,000k, even if a large number of deductions are taken and the family as small as 3 (the smallest sized family in your faux scenario) chooses to live impoverishedly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And who says you ahve to pay for college? I could get 2500 dollars a semester without trying do to ethnicity. I have been approved for an 18 grand scholarship before after screwing around on fastweb, lying aobut my age in the middle of the night (2:00 am) when I was 13. You can get scholarships from universities and not even go to them. (on occaision.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tell us, how does one get grants and loans when one's parents are making 100,000 a year, as you assume? Unless you're emancipated, you probably can't even get much in the way of unsubsidezed loans, much less subsidized in that case when you're parents are making that much. It's rather amusing how you resort to pure juvenile fantasy to try to illustrate you're point

        Reply To Post


      56. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        your college point is completely off the mark. I hate to side with keith, but oans are easy to come by(even in the top ten percent of incomes A.K.A. $100k or more.) Scholarships are also easy to get, you just have to be willing to look for them. Oh, and a 3 person family can live on quite a bit less that 35k a year. or are those dead people i'm always seeing? So i guess i'm with keith. that's weird.

        Reply To Post


      57. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------- your college point is completely off the mark. I hate to side with keith, but oans are easy to come by ------------------------------------------------------------------------- loans are an entirely different thing than "not having to pay for college" like Saxman suggests. Even loans you'd get would be of the Unsubsidized variety, and those accrue interest immediately, and there is a limit to unsubsidized and subsidized loan payouts. The problem is that until one is emancipated from the considerable wealth of the parents given in his 100K example, you'd certainly have access to no grants or subsidized loans. Also, scholarships typically have either a lot of competition for them or are of a nature that not many people actually qualify for them. Fooling around on a website by submitting fake scholarship queries doesn't back up his position either. Can anyone afford college? Yes, I'm certain they can if they want it bad enough, but lets not entertain these rediculous shoot-from-the-hip notions. I've dealt extensively with school finincial aid to the point of my existance depending on it at one point.

        Reply To Post


      58. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        Let me remind you that I am 18 years old, and just went through the process of getting financial aid for college. I have a 4 year renewable 4k scholarship which i got with very little effort, and my parents were easily able to secure a loan for the remainder, plus quite a bit. Getting a loan on my own would be slightly more difficult, but easier to pay off.

        Reply To Post


      59. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Let me remind you that I am 18 years old, and just went through the process of getting financial aid for college. I have a 4 year renewable 4k scholarship which i got with very little effort, and my parents were easily able to secure a loan for the remainder, plus quite a bit. Getting a loan on my own would be slightly more difficult, but easier to pay off. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Make no mistake spike, I mean no dissrespect, but a 4k renewable scholarship is not typical for the average highschool graduate.

        Reply To Post


      60. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        it's not typical, but you can do it. Most kids with no scholarship didn't bother to apply for any.

        Reply To Post


      61. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        Not that this thread is going anywhere too interesting, but I have to add my 2 cents that if someone's parents make so much money that the kid doesn't qualify for loans or scholarships - that the parents can swing a friggin' equity line on their home to help out the damn kid for crying out loud. I never EVER saw a bank even flinch when I needed loans for college, but then again, it's probably easier to get a loan if obtaining an engineering degree than a music degree. Your payoff odds are much greater with engineering - they know they'll get it back eventually. Anyone care to talk about eggs?

        Reply To Post


      62. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        i had an omlette this morning. It was quite tasty.

        Reply To Post


      63. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        not picking on ya spike, but: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, and a 3 person family can live on quite a bit less that 35k a year. or are those dead people i'm always seeing? So i guess i'm with keith. that's weird. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 people on 35k? If it were net income, yeah, not really a problem, but that 35k included in Saxman's scenario included cost of living *and* income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, state tax, and any tax-like deductions from the suggested $100,000 annual paycheck. These taxes alone are inevidably to exceed $20,000, just by looking at tax tables from last years return and doing some guesswork on deductions, credits, and the like. So, SaxMan is pretending that the fictional people are putting away 65 grand a year based on a very poor understanding of finances and taxes and trying to use that as some sort of argument

        Reply To Post


      64. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        well yeah, his scenerio would be crap. i'm talking about a 35k annual income. You can still put enough away for a decent sax on your 100k salary though. if not, the top 10% of america isn't doing very well.

        Reply To Post


      65. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        No one seems to get my points here. Ak is a rather - socialistic state and I never thought of the higher prices elsewhere. My parents combined make aobut 90 a year, taxes run aobut 10 grand, food about 5, gas about 1500, health insurance 9, social security, is negligable - maybe 5 a year, and utilities we are kind of hard on - about 600 a month. thats about 38 grand. and we are hard on gas an utilities. We donate old clothes and all that for deductions, they get deductions for having two kids etc. the 10 grand figure beign after the refund.... I guess it probably is a little more expensive to live elsewhere, but it isn't going to be no 50 percent. I can get 2500 a semester, no questions asked. There are all sorts of scholarship and grant opportunities that no one knows about, or uses. And they are note even hard to get. I have talked with some people, and they told me it would be relatively easy to get a quarter million dollar grant to start a new buisness - signifficantly easier than making it buisnesses are indeffinate, education isn't. you don't seem to be as much of an expert as you would appear. BTW, those figures I put down earlier are our bare bones expenses, everything else we spend is budgeted under, "niceties" I also thaught of something else - my best friend's family is of 9 people - they are all supported on a single income of about 65 a year and they have all sorts of stuff, big screen tv (From the late 80's, but that just proves they are able to make LARGE purchases.) all of the major game consols, several bikes, 3 vehicles a 1300 foot house. They don't make large purchases regularly, but they can if they have to. figure health insurance for nine people.

        Reply To Post


      66. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        I'm gonna be honest; that's the stupidest argument for anything i've ever heard. Of course an upper middle class family could afford a sax if they have no clothing, no furniture, no stuff, and, well, no HOUSE. that's really obvious. For that matter, this entire discussion is pointless and stupid. I say that anyone who wants to make a closing remark should do so, then Mark should close the discussion.

        Reply To Post


      67. by licknylons
        (2 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        What a cockfest. I'm a fool for reading so much of your ignorant, self-absorbed trash.

        Reply To Post


      68. by 5fingercurveball
        (11 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        I'll close this discussion, since I started it...I had no idea that this would be taken up into such depth as it was. I did not mean to deter this thread from its saxophone roots. I go to Vassar, and as they say in their brochure it's a "highly selective liberal arts college." Now I only say this to illustrate a point I'm about to make about their financial aid process, not to sound cocky, which I inevitably am regardless. Financial aid at Vassar, and other similar colleges is all need based - giving merit scholarships, from their POV, is pointless when everyone who goes there graduated in the top 10% of their high school class. When we did the FAFSA, which you have to fill out in order to qualify for financial aid, the government came back with a figure that was nearly a third of our income. By law, the college can offer only as much aid as is the difference between total cost of attending and the family contribution - if they give out more, they get nothing back from the government. Once you get this EFC (expected family contribution), you're pretty much stuck with it. We're honest people, and we're not about to lie, because if you get caught, you get nothing. And I did apply for scholarships, in fact, I got $6300 in them for the first year. In enters ridiculous federal law #2. Now matter what, you have to pay ALL of the EFC to the college. In my case, loans and work study added up to about $5000. When you report scholarships (also required by law), the college must apply it to loans and work study. If there's any money left over after that, which was true in my case, it doesn't get applied to your EFC; rather, the college DECREASES your grant! Why?, I have no clue, another way for the colleges and government to make more money perhaps, but if you talk to any financial aid officer at any college, they'll all tell you that that's their policy. And for those of you who don't think a third of your income (after taxes) is much, it is, especially when you're like most families that have tons of expenses (septic system, cars, insurance, utilities, food, mortgages). This stuff adds up FAST. And a point about getting loans. Sure, you can get loans to cover everything, but remember, they gotta get paid back! And paying back loans isn't easy, even though you're given a ton of time to do it in, especially if you've just graduated and you're looking for a job, an apartment, car, and bills and living expenses on top of that. My sister is proof positive of that - she's having a tough time with it, even with two jobs and a decently priced apartment. Out-of-state state colleges cost just as much as private schools. Sure I could've gone to my state university of UMASS, but would I have gotten any financial aid?, NO. Comparing the cost of Vassar to UMASS, I found a negligible difference. I could've have applied to a lesser state school, but you're paying for a lesser education (elitist yes, but true). I'm interested in doubling in physics and astronomy, and most schools don't offer astronomy, or the proper resources or quality of faculty you have to have in order to compete with kids applying to the good grad schools. I didn't want to go to a school where I was a number and professors didn't give a damn about you or teaching. I'm allowed to get my own education and guidance from professors without having to deal with all of the red tape and requirements most colleges have. At Vassar, I'm getting the most bang for my buck. If we were earning 100k a year, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you're rich or poor, paying for college isn't a problem - it's the middle class who end up getting screwed (as usual). It's hard, but it's something I and my parents find worth doing. So this discussion ends here! Let's get back to saxophones!

        Reply To Post


      69. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        dude, your email doesn't work, so i'll just post this: I'm getting really sick of that discussion, but i thought i'd say something, and extend the olive branch, as it were. The only reason I have a nice sax(or 5 other instruments for that matter) is that i'm going into music. We took care of it in junior year expecting this, otherwise i'd be in the same boat as you, except with a vito. So anyway, too bad you're passing up UMass, they've got a great music programme from what I hear. CT

        Reply To Post


      70. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        I just checked it - its workign now - I really need your advice man.

        Reply To Post


      71. by saxguy9345
        (21 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        Well I'm not pointing fingers, but thats 20 minutes of my life that I'll never get back. I think SaxMan will be a great used car salesman someday. (You know I know you know what I'm talking about.) And secondly why waste all your talent sitting in some sax repair shop? You better smack that thing down in the middle of 200,000+ people or else you'll go down the drain, IBM doesn't give its small business offers to arts retail in less than metropolitan areas. So grandma's quilt shop is going with ya. (Haha, its past my bed time. My apologies.)

        Reply To Post AIM


      72. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        Well, as far as I ma concerned, you have got to be touched in the head to pursue classical saxophone as your career. It isn't impossible to, but it is next to it, and then, nothing is definate, pay isn't definate, sales aren't definate. Even today the stuff they call "jazz" is hard to get going on.

        Reply To Post


      73. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        As there are numerous professional musicians in my family, I'll attest by observation that a musician's life is a pauper's and nomad's life, though it might be a happy one. There are exceptions, but there are only so many well-paid seats to be filled for musicians and those will probably dwindle more and more as the music industry falls to the likes of Clear Channel the same way that K-Mart has (practically) fallen to WalMart. "It's a hard-knock life...for us..."

        Reply To Post


      74. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        o man i feel so dirty.... where are the moderators... i need a lock... everytime anyone of these saxmans crazy forums start up i feel dirty...altho i started the last one... check mark vi... brecker brothers im disappointed in you your still ok but you did make some blanket arguements, altho altos are yes a very touchy thing and metal may be bad... my jody jazz for bari is great and its metal metals do not suck it is anyones opinion... just try em dont be taken in COLTRANES TONE SUCKS.... geez that is probably the worst thing that you said in here you all should be ashamed shouting out your hate where here to love sax not tear each other apart in a "cockfight" somewhere along the line you guys lost your way i only have one thing to say: ...what does this have to do with reeds... (by the first reply wam mouthpieces get brought in...)

        Reply To Post


      75. by SaxMan
        (559 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        Do you know what barbarian means? Barbarian is derived of the word, "barbar", meaning speaking rubbish. (bar bar bar bar.) Now, will you translate?

        Reply To Post


      76. by golferguy675
        (600 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        Either this is the most poorly moderated forum on the web, or he's just crackin up, waiting for the discussion to go to 100 posts. Shut this thread down!

        Reply To Post


      77. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        100 posts it is BARBARBARBARBAR (saxman what are u talking about ....) BAR BAR BAR BAR

        Reply To Post


      78. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        yes metal ligs are good. BAR BAR BAR BAR

        Reply To Post


      79. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        sorry about this but i really need to kill this

        Reply To Post


      80. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        yup metal

        Reply To Post


      81. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        DIE DAMN U THREAD

        Reply To Post


      82. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        DIE

        Reply To Post


      83. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        DIE

        Reply To Post


      84. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        DIE

        Reply To Post


      85. by barimachine
        (323 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        THERE NOW KILL IT

        Reply To Post


      86. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        I don't get it. He hates Coltrane's tone but he lists him as his favorite player in his profile. Go figure... POSER!!!!!!!!!!!

        Reply To Post


      87. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        i'm gonna be bold and proclaim: I love Coltrane's tone! P.S. i hate brecker's tone. love spike

        Reply To Post


      88. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        I love Coltrane's tone, too. And, man, there isnt anything wrong with Brecker's tone. I dont love it, but I dont hate it.

        Reply To Post AIM


      89. by sax_maniac
        (984 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: because I'm bored...

        I'm not a jazz connoiseur but the first sax tone that caught my attention was Joshua Redman. There's other players I've heard whose improv maybe grabbed me a bit more, but for tone, I like his clarity, control and confidence.

        Reply To Post


      90. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        10 years ago

        Great Jazz tone

        i'm hereby killing "because i'm bored..." and turning this into a good thread again. Anyway, i quite enjoy potter and david binney's tones, but i think gregory tardy has some of the best tone i've ever heard(he's my favorite tonaly, as well as my second favorite tenor.) I'm going to admit that my favorite instrument for tone has to either be a rhodes, or an epiphone hollowbody. they're so sweet, way more interesting than piano.

        Reply To Post


      91. by BreckerBrothersaregods!
        (23 posts)

        10 years ago

        Re: Great Jazz tone

        When it comes to great tone, I got to give it up to Dexter Gordon.

        Reply To Post AIM