Saxophone Forum


by tmgaus51
(16 posts)
18 years ago

trying to develop specific sound

The other day I was playing with some other students, and the sound the tenor player had developed seemed like exactly what I wanted. It was almost a cross between Stan Getz or Lester Young and Chris Potter. It seemed to have a contemporary edge, but was very wavy and almost seemed to have its own reverb making it very hypnotic--but strangely enough without vibrato. I know he was using a selmer tenor with an Otto Link metal mouthpiece. My problem is that I'm an alto player and I intend to stay one. Is it possible for me to develop this type of sound on the higher-pitched alto? Did the metal mouthpiece have a lot to do with it? because I've heard metal mouthpieces and altos don't really mix? If it is possible for me to develop this type of sound, what should I go about doing embouchure-wise? My setup is a yanagisawa 902 bronze horn, Meyer 5 medium chamber mouthpiece, and Rico Royal 3 reeds. Thanks a lot for any help.

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  1. by toneus
    (4 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: trying to develop specific sound

    Hi, Trying to develop your sound can be a continous quest. What I find important that players are developing their own sound, and not try to copy a "pure" Parker sound, or whoever your idol is. ( But try to play like your idol is a good starting point.) Don't forget that a tenor has a different sound than altos, than bari's etc. What I suggest to do is listen to other players (professionals and amateurs) and try to find out there mouthpiece (and instrument) setup. There is a nice webpage outthere that publishes setups of pro's: www.mouthpieceheaven.com/content/player.htm" target="other">www.mouthpieceheaven.com/content/player.htm And go to a shop and try different mouthpieces and feel how they play and listen to the sound. Go there more than once. about metal on an alto: It's a matter of personal preference, some don't like it, others really love it. try out brands like meyer(other sizes) otto-link and Berg Larsen (my personal favorite) And compare metal against ebonite.

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    1. by toneus
      (4 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: trying to develop specific sound

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  2. by swingstreet
    (315 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: trying to develop specific sound

    Tone is a personal thing. If you heard a tenor player that had the sound you liked, it's highly unlikely that you can get that sound on an alto. However, this can be the basis for forging your own sound. You can approximate that sound on the alto, but you shouldn't try to duplicate it, just be yourself.

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    1. by knorter
      (205 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: trying to develop specific sound

      I disagree with Toneus and Swingstreet. Both tell you to just develop your own sound and to not imitate others. However, imitation in their early, developing years is exactly what every important saxophonist has ever done. Dexter Gordon was heavily influenced by Lester Young. Trane was influenced by Dexter and Lester. Sonny Stitt was influenced by Bird, etc... Learning to play jazz is learning a new language. in order to communicate in a new languauge we must hear, and imitate. Toneus mentions finding the equipment that your favorite players use--I couldn't disagree more. the mouthpiece only amplifies what the player is putting into it. Therefore if you don't know how to create a certain sound through your embouchere, throat position, tongue position, air pressure etc... then you'll still sound bad on a different mouthpiece. Think of Bird--he was a heroin addict who often sold his horn prior to gigs to score more drugs. producers often had to borrow horns for him when he would show up to recording sessions without his own. But Bird always sounded like Bird no matter what mouthpiece or horn he had at the time. To answer the initial post you should do long tones, overtone studies and exercises on the mouthpiece in order to gain control. Also you should transcribe and most importantly play along with the transcription to match the original player's sound. You'll have to experiment with moving around your tongue and vocal chords to get different tones. I think transcribing tenor players on alto will help you achieve a sound that isn't thin and high pitched. Good luck. Kristy

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      1. by swingstreet
        (315 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: trying to develop specific sound

        Kristy, read my short post just a little more carefully. Nowhere in it did I say not to imitate anyone. I basically imply that you can't really imitate anyone. I am influenced by Benny Carter and Johnny Hodges. In trying to play their tunes and emulate their style, I arrived at my own style and tone. I had Lee Konitz as teacher, and he even told me that he thought I had a tone of my own. Ditto Tim Price, who I also took lessons from. I did listen and absorb my idols' style and sounds, but it in the end, it came out me. That is what I'm saying. I will stand by my belief. Yes, you can be influenced by other players, but you still have to be yourself.

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        1. by swingstreet
          (315 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: trying to develop specific sound

          I would also like to add that toneus was saying much the same thing. I think you habe really missed the point of what we are both saying here.

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        2. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: trying to develop specific sound

          I didn't miss the point of anything you said. You said in your first post that you can approximate that sound on alto but you shouldn't try to duplicate it. I disagree. So does Dave Liebman as long as we're throwing around names to back up our opinions. He and I both feel you should duplicate a players sound, inflections, notes, articulation etc... as beginners until we begin to make these decisions for ourselves. Then I agree with you it becomes a personal reflection of these influences. Kristy

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        3. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: trying to develop specific sound

          I reread Toneus as well and he stated in the beginning of his post to find your own sound and not try to copy a Parker sound. I will agree that my first few sentences need to be more clearly defined in my original post. I feel you and Toneus state to listen and allow for an internal influence of these players. But you both state not to copy anyone. I feel a beginner should absolutely imitate them literally until they develop certain skills. I also think that Toneus was more concerned with equipment than developing the sound within. The original post seemed to be a student who heard several influences in another player's sound. My advice was to transcribe and imitate those influences in order to develop that sound for himself. His sound will still come through when he's progressed further and it will be a combination of all of his influences.

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        4. by swingstreet
          (315 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: trying to develop specific sound

          Of course, all of us are influenced by someone who inspired us on sax, and certainly, I spent lots of time copying Benny Carter and Johnny Hodges solos from recordings. However, copy as I may, it still came out through my own filter. I didn't try to sound like them, but used their approach and sound to form the basis of my own. This is essentially what I am saying. I also said that you can't duplicate the sound of a tenor on alto. You just can't. That doen't mean that you shouldn't be influenced or inspired by tenor players. Cannonball said he was partly influenced by Coleman Hawkins, and he was certainly influenced by Coltrane during his tenure with Miles Davis. This is partly why his alto sound was beefy. You mentioned how Charlie Parker, because of his drug habit, had used different horns becuse he would pawn his for drugs, and he still sounded like Bird. Unfortunately, some of that isn't true. I have had the good fortune to know lots of jazz musicians, because of my own quest to learn saxophone and jazz, and partly because I worked as a bartender for several New York jazz clubs. I spoke with many musicians who had either known or worked with Bird, including Lee Konitz, my teacher, as well as Ray Brown, Gil Evans, Dizzy Gillespie, to name a few. They told me that there were more than several occasions when Bird played like crap and sounded as bad. Maybe he was too strung out, who knows. Still, he was human, and his genius did not always transcend his drug habit or a bad horn or mouthpiece. That is just part of the legend. In an old western, "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", the closing scene has this line "When you have to print the truth or the legend, always print the legend".

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        5. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: trying to develop specific sound

          Swingstreet, I feel like we mostly agree on everything but we are spinning our wheels in how to exactly write what we mean. In regards to Bird, we were talking about tone and despite his horrible performances which were inevitable I would be still willing to bet that his tone sounded identifiable. If you had walked into one of those clubs while he was playing and heard 2 notes you would have said that's Bird despite his equipment. That was my point in my earlier post. Of course he had to sound sloppy due to his substance addiction, nodding off, unfocused. It's physically impossible to overcome those chemical influences to the degree he would need to sound great all the time. The whole discussion was about tone. Secondly, it's hard to think about how we developed in our early playing years. I'm willing to bet you had already progressed to a certain point by the time you studied with Lee. If you hadn't I truly believe you would have been told some of the things I am suggesting to the original post. The wording of the original post led me to believe that he was a beginner and that sound development wasn't something that was intuitive. For you and I copying the styles of famous players from their recordings may have been instinctive. Giving advice in this format is very difficult. There is not enough info to make a complete assessment of a player. Also we've never heard them play. But most importantly there are other young, developing players who will read this post that may take advice given to a more advanced player and think that the same applies to them. I felt it was important to state that trying to copy the greats is a good idea for sound development. While I don't believe that you disagree we obviously have some differences in our approach. I (maybe incorrectly) interpreted your original post as saying to listen to the greats but come up with your own sound. This concept is too advanced for many of the beginners on this forum. I also believe in developing your own style and sound but after you've learned how to play. Like I said I feel like we're mostly in agreement but just have some small differences. Of course an alto cannot sound exactly like a tenor but transcribing tenor players helps the alto tone to be less bright and create a more beefy sound as you said before. The original post wanted to sound like a player who sounded like certain other players, I suggested to go to the original sources, imitate them and to not worry about mouthpieces. Do you agree with that or not? I would assume yes based on your later replies.

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      2. by The Insomniac Saxman
        (141 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: trying to develop specific sound

        Your setup sounds good and pure (round chamber, no baffle), and will help you develop consistency in richness of tone. My advice would be to experiment with different ligatures and reeds, but always focus on filling the horn to the bottom with air with as little interference as possible (no high baffles, square chambers, etc.--after all, the shape of the saxophone tube is round). Best of all, record yourself. You might also consider having a friend or two (who you can trust to be honest) give you constructive feedback about your sound while you experiment (give them options, and have them A-B your setup changes).

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        1. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: trying to develop specific sound

          Don't worry about your setup; just practice on your tone. My teacher told me to play facing a corner, tied my chin off with a hankerchief, and took my tenor out of my hands to help me. My point is, whatever it takes. I hope that you have a good teacher. Both my teachers were alto players and they sounded great on tenor. Whenever I play alto, I think of Fred Hemke and I base my sound on him teaching me. I can do anything that I want to alter it to different genres. I knew Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons, so I got my tenor sound from them. Kristy is absolutely right!!!! You have to listen and play along. That's how you develop good articulation techniques. Terry

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          1. by tmgaus51
            (16 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: trying to develop specific sound

            Great. Thanks for all of the responses....I guess it's time to really start transcribing....

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