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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
Any more guys are carrying their real books to gigs, most can't play without them. The realbooks are a great learning tool, but a player should learn some tunes without having to read them. It looks so bad, when on a combo gig, the musicians are having to read each tunes. Lots of guys can't even play the melody of tunes but can read the changes and improvise a solo on the tune. The incompetence of some players aways supprises me............Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by kneejerk52
(397 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
the good part about this software is, it includes the recording that corespond with the chart, i found that to be worth the price alone. and if you don't happen to know the tune, it could be a way to learn it AND hear how the artist solos on it. check it out before you put something down or discourage young people who could have a chance to learn something.
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
kneejerk, did you read what I said about it being a good learning tool?
Do you take your real books on the gigs you play?
If this is the case you are one of the guys I was talking about.
If you are so unprepared, don't take the gig.........Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by kneejerk52
(397 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
yes i read that one little bite of positive mixed in with all the negitive. i can understand what you are saying, but, i have see very good players using music. i might use sheet if im not comfortable with the melody of new tune, but isn't it what the music sounds like in the end. ever se an big band play without music????? or are they unprepared too. i just don't like to discourage people from playing, i though this forum was to help.
There is a reason why people don't post here often.
have a good day jack
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
Jack, I don't know if you know any tunes or not? If you don't you are probably in the majority.
Lots of the youngish Coltrane Clones have a fake book in front of them. ( I know, you are an older guy)
To me it's like a vocalist reading the words while performing.
If you watch any videos of the good jazz guys they don't read in a small jazz band. They know what they are playing. To play your best one needs to be able to totally focus on playing. Reading out of a fake book is distracting.
Small band jazz gigs are not like big bands who have to read.
As I said before, recordings and fake books are good learning tools, but wake up and be more professional............Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by kneejerk52
(397 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
how could you know? do you think you are a mind reader too? why are you so quick to attack people and put people down, this is why nobody wants to post here because of morons like you. i don't care how many songs you know, if you treat people like this that you play with, my guess is you will be pretty lonely.
did i say, hey guys look here is a tool to take on gigs????
i use the books to give the bass, guitar and piano the format of the songs, i can usually play my part without too much help. and this we use in my house where we pratice.
and also videos and a gig, are you kidding you are comparing what people would do on a gig vs. a video, thats funny.
and please tell me why the small band gig and and big bands are different.
i grew up listening to my father play cromatic harmonica, he would have me play the sheet, and then he would play the improvise version for me, how and when to use virbrato, how to make variations, much better than ill ever be he could play anything he heard.
and to answer your question i don't know how many tunes i know, let's just say a few over the years, i don't keep track there is no point.
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
Sorry kneejerk, we live in different realities.
Have a good day..........Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by MarkLavelle
(300 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
'like a vocalist reading the words while performing'
Other than the visuals, what's the problem with that? There are plenty of songs I don't sing often enough to know all the words to, but I can sing quite well. Should I skip them or just sing the one verse I remember three times? I don't see a serious problem with having 'sheet music' on hand if one needs a little help remembering.
As for cloners, a fake book barely gets you to first base. There is absolutely no substitute for *knowing* the tune -- if you don't really know a melody you shouldn't be performing it in public!
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
I wouldn't hire a singer who didn't know lots of tunes.
So many of our listeners hear with their eyes.
Doesn't say much for them but that's why we have singers. Lots of people don't understand music without words. I like instrumental music so much better, but I've learned to sing pretty much out of self defense.
I'm glad we agree about horn players knowing some tunes..............Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by knorter
(205 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
Oh my goodness...I'm agreeing with Kelsey twice in one month!
If you went to a doctor and he or she said they needed to perform a procedure on you and then proceeded to open up a book to "double check" and guide them through your operation, I'm guessing that action would not breed confidence in your soul. There is a difference between learning something and knowing something. I'm sure there are a lot of interns that through the help of a medical book and supervisor could successfully perform many procedures but they're not called "Doctor" yet for a reason.
Having said that... in certain long term gig settings i.e. you've had a 4 hour trio job at a club every Friday night for years and the bass player wants to call a new tune, that's not so bad. However... any self respecting player would do their homework after being introduced to the new song and learn it on their own for next time.
k
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
As usual I am right again Kristy!.......Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by blackfrancis
(396 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
I've got to agree with Kelsey. Fake books are a good tool, but once you learn the tune, you really should abandon the book. Nothing is more annoying than the time-consuming rooting through the briefcase to find "Blue Bossa". Big band charts are a completely different animal- they tell you what to do in the context of a complex arrangement for a comparatively large number of musicians. As to vocalists and lyrics, I would insist on memorization as well. Reading the words when you're out front looks unprofessional and generally results in a less musical performance.
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by kneejerk52
(397 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
check out this, Co-opbop.com, i saw them last nite at Allentown Symphony Hall. They played to a packed house and abosolutly killed them. Each member could headline thier own band, they are that good. Oh and by the way they used a couple of charts in the course of the nite.
i know what you guys are saying to read an entiire gig would suck and be for me kind of boring. but i just think you are making to big of a deal of it, there is no discrace in reading a couple of tunes.
and as for the big band thing i was just bustin on kesley, although i do sit next to an alot player who i think could do it without the charts, or pretty close if the condutor was on the ball. nice hearty point of view who else will chime in???
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by MarkLavelle
(300 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
You pro types should lighten up a bit (you *are* the minority, you know...) ;-)
We amateurs -- as in 'lovers of' (NOT 'unprofessionals') -- don't have as much time to put into our music as we might like or you might think necessary, but that doesn't mean we aren't serious about making good music. If real books helps us make better music, why *shouldn't* we use them?
Not all performances are paid (or even in front of an audience), and *most* audiences are not full of connoisseurs. It's quite possible to have a less-than-perfect performance that everyone is perfectly happy with, or even excited about.
I do agree that if you really want to make it as a professional you just have to learn the repertoire, but let's not forget that most of us are not professionals (and don't want to be).
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by blackfrancis
(396 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
Do we all not aspire to something better?
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
How can you unprofessional types learn what the professional opinion is if it's not stated?
I didn't mean that you and other amateurs shouldn't read your fake books at your jam sessions or whatever.
I never owned a real book or any fake book when learnig to play. l learned to play the tunes by ear.
Not every one has the time or desire to do this.
I am not a teacher anymore. I don't care about teaching anybody anything.
All I've done is given my opinion. I would think it should have some value to others, but if you don't want professionals to tell you what they think, I wonder what the value of all this is? I guess you think it best for only students of the saxophone give their opinion.
I value your opinion as an amatuer player a nd I would hope you would value mine. Takes all kinds......Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by chalazon
(547 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
I think he might be a bit jealous, Kelsey..don't all us amatuers wish secretly we could be full time pros? Yes, my friend, your opinion is very much valued here...crusty as it might be..you may not teach, but you still inspire..sail on..
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
I'd like to add, my opinions may not always be right for everybody. It's only what I think and works for me.
Sometimes I 'm really opinionated and sound like a know it all. I'm sorry for doing this so much of the time. I really
Barry Kelsey
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by kelsey
(930 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
I'd like to add, my opinions are not right for everybody. It's only what I think and works for me.
Sometimes I 'm really opinionated and sound like a know it all. I'm sorry for doing this so much of the time. I really like people, but sometimes I get bored and like to get things started.
Kneejerk sounds like a serious student of the saxophone. Hang in there Kneejerk..........Kelsey
Barry Kelsey
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by kneejerk52
(397 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
i enjoy peoples opinions, understanding how they think.
i am not a pro, i am paid from time to time, but am humbled on a regular basis by listening to pro's play live.
it's ok to have strong opinions, it's ok not to agree
im glad to see DIFFERENT opinions this is how we learn
thanks, kneejerk
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by MarkLavelle
(300 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
Jealous? Not a chance! Playing music as a job would be a major buzz-kill for me. I know because I came close to that in my early days, and eventually made a very conscious choice not to go down that road.
I'm definitely *not* saying that anyone is wrong, or that I'm not interested in performance tips from people who know. I just think it's important to remember that professional performance is only one venue for making and enjoying music.
I said above that there's no substitute for really knowing a tune -- without that grounding you don't stand a chance of really 'making it your own.' But I'll bet that just about everyone here has had the experience of jamming to an 'un-known' tune that (at least for a minute or two) blew the socks off of everyone in the room. Is there any reason you should care if some of the players used books?
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by MarkLavelle
(300 posts)
15 years ago
Re: real books
I do value your opinion, Kelsey, and I'm genuinely grateful that there are pros who'll take the time to participate in a forum like this. My only gripe is about the tendency to assume that the pro world is what really matters.
I've learned about 95% of what I know by ear (as a guitarist and singer since elementary school), so I hear you on that. I never seriously tried sight reading until I started monkeying around with tenor sax about 5 years ago, and a Real Book is of no use to me in an actual performance situation (even if it does speed up the learning by ear part).
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