------------------------------------------------------------- Quite an amazing amount of text for someone who doesent rate the question or us.Perhaps in your case its wiser to say nothing --------------------------------------------------------------- No. You are the problem here. Perhaps in your case you shouldn't have started a thread by "begging the question".

It's no secret that Tango and I have went a few rounds before, but yet we seem to agree on so many things. I think we're cut from the same cloth afterall. I admire his passion and faith in the Knights Templar, and this cat has earned my respect! In my lifetime, I've probably played close to 1000 saxophones. The new horns just don't get me too excited. I have played some very nice horns from Keilwerth, Yamaha, and even a few Selmers and Cannonballs that I liked, but there was always something missing. Perhaps I get a little sentimental when it comes to smelly cases! Sure newer horns have their advantages, but take a PT Cruiser and a 32 Ford for example. Sure, the PT has nostalgic retro styling and looks cool. It has air conditioning, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes and airbags, but a 32 Ford has character! Sure, the PT drives a lot better than that 32 Ford, but there's just something about that old Ford; the headlights, the old style gauges in the dash, that big steering wheel, or the sound of the flathead V8 motor. All these things make it fun to drive regardless of the sound system and the power steering! Not to mention, the big heavy steel body. They just don't build them like that anymore! The same is true of vintage saxophones. First of all, many of their parts were made by hand, by experienced master craftsmen. The quality of metal was better. The brass was thicker. To build a new saxophone with the same quality of a saxophone of the mid 1930's would cost a fortune, if the same quality of materials is even available! Today's horns are made with profitivity in mind more so than quality. It's more than just the quality of the metal though, it's nostalgia! It's a way of connecting yourself to that era in time! When saxophone was king! It's a way of connecting yourself to the great musicians of the time. For me, there is a certain pride in taking an old horn and restoring it and making it sing once again. I find character in my vintage horns. They all have their unique personalities. For me, Vintage all the way!

now that the debate is started, how old is vintage? i have a 1962 VSP Vito alto that is nothing like any vito's today. now i would assume it's not vintage, or is it?

Try a dent test on modern and vintage horns.Dents push out on modern horns a lot easier then vintage due to the strength of material..Tone in modern can be thin and longivity will your modern chinese/cheap taiwanese junk horn last as long as a cheap (at the time junk vintage horn) i doubt it very much Dave

Response to saxman jim. The knights state, An excellent post our order recognise quality Speaking musically .May be the second world war smashed all the exsisting values giving way to change, and some great things appeared during 50s And early 60s.But in any economy that needs to pull in, manufacturing is always the first to suffer.To kneejerk52 ha ha very good question whats vintage? may be anther thread on this one.And to Dave Dix yes been their many times you may have hit on the key point of the thread. The knights feel that the alloy when its hardened or brittle, in the material is far better.There are various techniques, to harden or coat saxes.But inessence, good quality alloy to start helps.This could be another thread (Bird lives)

What is Vintage? I suppose the answer is very subjective to opinion. I really consider 3 different "catagories" of vintage. There are the pre-1930 models, like the Conn Wonde, New Wonder series I and II, the Buescher True Tones, and other very early instruments. Some of these had pretty good intonation. These horns are better suited to experienced players who can deal with their little idiosyncracies and need for a little extra care. The next caragory would be those horns built from 1930 until the about 1960. This would include your earlier Selmer BA, SBA, and the early Mark VI's, the Conn 6M and 10M, the King Zephyr and Super 20, Buescher Aristocrat and 400, and others; many of which are still in use today. These are the player's vintage saxophones that people like love! These are the vintage horns to lust after! Finally there's the 3rd catagory which includes those horns made from about 1961-1977? 1980? These would include the early Yanigasawas, the Selmer Mark VII, and a few of the later horns. It's funny, 1980 doesn't seem that old to me, but that was 25 years ago, and I suppose anything 25 years and older could be considered vintage!

When I bought my '62 Super 20 in 1977 it was considered second hand.

I kind of like jim's synopsis. I don't consider my '86 Yani vintage. I consider my mid-60's Buescher 400 vintage, though in order to really be vintage, there has to be some legitimate desire for the horn, so others might dissagree.

Who cares weather its vintage or not? does " vintage " that sounds better ? a 1890 made tissue we can classifly as VINTAGE but that doesnt mean people gonna spend any cent on it compare to a 1970 made mark 6 to a brand new series 3 people rather buy mark 6 not because its vintage , but the values

I have to agree with Jim somewhat. I haven't Played a thousand saxophones, but I've played on a lot of them. I own Yamaha YTS-61 and a Whitehall (Yanagisawa) bari. Those I consider modern horns, but they seem to lack the Character that the old horns have. When I go out to play, I use the bari for now on a few tunes, but I have an old Pan American bari that I plan to repad and take out then sell the Whitehall.The Yamaha just sits on a stand in my living room since I finished my custom Chu tenor.

To heck with the values. I sold a '72 Mk. VI and you know what I replaced it with? A '33 Conn 6M. Yeah, it DOES sound better. And I spent about 1/3 as much money on it. I think that the bottom line is "What do you make the best music on?" If you can get hold of one, check it out. You might not care if it's vintage or not, but you might find out that '30s Conn craftsmanship (that's a word forgotten by most these days) STILL ROCKS!

P.S. Thanks to Tango 61 for this thread. ( Tango lives)

OK Help someone pinch me I might wake up -------- Everyone talks about craftsmaship I keep looking at photos of Canns ,,. Marcians and Butchers and I see no craftsmanship ! To me they all look crude . Apart from mint Silversonics (and some big bucks restored horns re-done by modern methods ) they fail to captivate me . Sure there is history, that I buy ,,,,,but I would not want to play on Marcel Mule's sax anymore than on a old Conn ( and neither would he if he tried my modern horn ) unless all I was interested in was sounding different not necessarily better. Anyway the Knights Templar are not in possesion of the Holy Grail on this one.

Right you are, they do look different. Have you tried one out? Conns, Kings and Martins are put together right for sure (I have no experience of Buescher) and though they look different than a Selmer, they are by no means crude. A Selmer has a certain kind of sound and feel to it, and lots of folks like that. An old Conn also has a sound and feel to it, and some like that too. Play one and maybe it will captivate you too. It certainly did me. All of my horns are older american ones- I just dig 'em. And yes, to me they sound better. (operative words: to me) If you like Selmer, good enough, so many others have too. But if you get that Silversonic, watch out! It may be the pinch you've been waiting for!

I got rid of a '73 MarkVI and got a '51 SBA. On the first gig I played, a TROMBONE player who has known me (and my plyaing) for years said "Wow! What did you do?" (it was a good Wow, not a bad Wow)

from johnson... "And that would be exactly why the Knight's entire post is irrelavent. It's not in step with reality. Much vintage stock was junk, but has had the benifit of having the worst it being long since scrapped." I agree with this 100%, it's like music today. (going off on a tangent here) My friend and I spin records and have this dj hobby... he has a lot of old disco. Now let me tell you that there was just as much crap being produced back in the disco era as there is now (both in dance records and on the radio) but we won't remeber the crap in 10 years... kinda the same way with vintage anything. Same way with classical music (for another example).

I have to admit that I was once a diehard Yamaha man, but not since I was begged to play an old Conn. I played an old MK6 Selmer in college jazz band in the early 80's and never thought about playing what I considered to be a beginners sax. A Conn? Yes a Conn. The first one I played really suprised me, it was so clean and bright sounding. Now I collect saxophones and most of them are Conns. They take a lot of adjustment especially setting the pad heights where my Yamahas have screw adjustments, but they sound better to me. I truly believe that if you play the tenor sax, you should own a Chu Berry Tenor along with whatever other make you play.

Well selmer 4 ever you should try a buescher aristocrat pre 1963 as selmer bought them out then and butchered about the best made horns. Where do you think selmer based their horns from? Buescher also made the early selmers (new york models) Try them before you knock them Dave

Selmers are a rip off! They have stolen all of their technology and designs from companies like Couesnon, Buffet, Conn, Martin, Buescher, and Dolnet! Selmer couldn't make a decent saxophone! They stole everyone elses! They've sought to buy out every one of their competitors, and most of them they have! Their quality control is almost as bad as Cannonball's....maybe even worse, as Cannonball has gotten better. I won't buy another damn Selmer, and I will tell anyone and everyone who asks me NOT to buy them either!

well thats your opinion no one have to agree with you MR GREAT STORY JIM

Not just my opinions davidau, but facts. Selmer got their start here in the US by selling Buffet clarinets. The first Selmer saxophones imported into the US were made by Couesnon, but they could not compete with the American companies in terms of price and quality, so Selmer started selling saxophones that were made by mostly Conn, and the Manhattans which were made by Martin, and a few models by Buescher. The earlier BA and SBA models were basically copies of a Buffet Dynaction! Look them over! It doesn't take a genius to see who they copied that design from! Then, a few years later, they introduced the Mark VI. A little story about that.....since I know how much you like my storys dave! Basically, they took a Dolnet sax and said "hmmm.....this saxophone has a nice big bore. It has a nice crisp sound. It doesn't play bad, but knowing what we know from ripping off Buffet and the American companies like Conn and Buescher (laugh laugh) , we can make a better playing horn." "We'll sell it for twice as much as any other horn on the market right now, and we will simply tell everyone that it is the best and they will believe us!" "Why? Because we're Selmer!" "Then once we have established a reputation with our new Mark VI, we'll gradually offer customers less horn for more money until our customers figure out that we're ripping them off!" "Then we'll introduce The new Mark VII!" "In the meantime, lets keep telling everyone that 1. All Conn and Buescher Saxophones are student models. 2. US saxophones have bad intonation and bad design (even though we successfully marketed US horns for 50 years!) and 3. Only a Selmer is good enough for the professional musician!" "Hey, for fun, lets buy out Buescher, since they're about to go out of business because we SCREWED them on a bunch of orders and the whole padless sax gimic, make a bunch of crappy horns with Buescher's name on them to further emphasize what "junk" the American horns are!" (laugh laugh) Probably something to that effect, anyway

Are most people erroneously mixing Selmer US with Henri Selmer of Paris . they are different companied you know!!! frankly I never liked the way the US firm has been run and continues to run, but I have dealt with Selmer paris and find them more willing to listen . I can affirm that as soon as Montreal started to order from Europe we saw a different Selmer here!!! As for --connsaxman_jim's story--- nice fiction... Companies would give their right arm to be able to execute a plan as well as you describe it . Maybe Selmer and GM are run by the same people since they both bought out everyone else ?????? As for the Silversonic I am mainly looking at buying one as a collector . does anyone know of a mint alto for sale???

Even selmer did copy who ever that still a successed copy and did even better a original one i wont say thats copy, thats call develop. and thats why saxophone will impove.

here is something that will get ---- connsaxman_jim and Co------a little upset I forgot to mention ,,,wasn't it Henri Selmer of Paris that bought all the patents that Adolph Sax had registered ---? As amatter of fact they bought Sax's entire shop in 1929 The depression killed everyone including those ---high flying,,,, debt ridden,,,,,no cash flow ,,,,, American Companies . Any way----- connsaxman_jim---- The French have always been among the worlds best---- copper bronze and brass ----artisans. Isn't she beautiful in the NY harbour ??????????

agreed with selmer 4evr jim just someone know how to BS and some newbie think he is good ROFL I mean just compare with their price you will know the difference even Japan (yamaha) or Taiwan (Jupitor) Made saxophone i rekon is a lot better then american one

davidau: On this site, you're the newbie, and you've been out of line. Jim has been perfectly courteous to you, while all you've been is insulting. If you can't disagree without being offensive, you should withold comment. You may have valid or intelligent things to say, but they're obscured by your crummy manners. Please attend to them. As far as vintage versus new, I defer to my instructor. He's a superb musician in both classical and jazz on clarinet and alto, and he made a handsome living most of his life playing jazz on a vintage Martin. He's a one horn guy, and when he got a new Yani last year, he was thrilled with it and it's now all he plays. Still, when he played my 1937 6M, his eyebrows went up in the air at it's tonal qualities. He doesn't disparage new or old, but judges each horn by it's individual sound, intonation, playability, and durability. That seems to me to be the most rational attitude. It makes perfect sense to personally boycott a company whose business practices one finds objectionable. My family's prior generation, on both sides, never bought or drove a Ford, because of Henry Ford's notorious anti-semitism. It didn't matter whether the cars were the best or the worst. If Jim thinks that Selmer's business practices have been ethically questionable (and there seems to be some basis to that belief), why shouldn't he express it by what he buys and plays?

Rather you agree with me or not, I speak my opinions, but my opinions are based on truth, fact, and personal experience! I am very passionate about some things. This happens to be oe of them. Davidau, I have tolerated about all of your disrespect I care to tolerate. I've been a member of this forum a lot longer than you and I have earned the respect of the others in this forum including Mark, Scott, Knorter, Elke and the other moderators. One email to them and I'm quite sure I can have you thrown out of here! Just try me! Unless you have something intelligent to say, I suggest you keep your mouth shut!

Yes, Selmer did buy all of Sax's patents. That's true. They've bought just about every saxophone company in existance! It was the American companies and Selmer's (actually George Bundy's) shady business practices that kept Selmer afloat during the Great Depression; at the American companies' expense! I fail to see the relavence between the Statue of Liberty and a Selmer saxophone, but also, I am not disputing the quality of Buffet saxophones. They're very good! The had the smoothest, nicest action on the market back in the 1930's. THAT's why Selmer stole their design! High Flyinh, Debt Ridden, No Cash Flow American Companies....you're absolutely correct! THANKS TO SELMER!

Just to clear up my statement about the Statue of Liberty for connsaxman_jim She is made of copper and she is French Built !!!1 As for Bundy This is a direct quote---- In 1927 George Bundy buys the store from the Selmers, changing the name to H. & A. Selmer, Inc. There was no remaining financial connection between the Selmers in Paris and Selmer in America. Mr. Bundy was appointed the sole distributor for Selmer Paris instruments in the United States and opened a manufacturing plant in Elkhart, Indiana. In 1941 Bundy starts the very successful Bundy line of student instruments. There are Bundy saxophones, clarinets, trumpets and flutes. During the 50s and 60s H. & A. Selmer, Inc. bought some instrument producers like Vincent Bach or Buescher. As a matter of fact George Bundy an american I believe ( from NY ) also screwed Henri Selmer of Paris by competing directly with his own supplier when he opened up in Elkhart . Anyway connsaxman_jim don't be upset with the French ,,,,,,I am glad that in Canada Selmer saxes come directly from France now .

Selmer4evr you have a point in regards to Henri Selmer and the French Selmer Co verses the American Selmer Co. Henri and Alex Selmer had little to do with the unethical shady business practices that I speak of. That was largely George Bundy, who I have no respect for whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, Bundy was about as crooked as they come!

The point is French Selmer owned all of you you just can not accept that cant you? ROFL

You obviously have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about davidau. Don't you have a village to attend to somewhere? ROFL!

NO JIM, I AM READING YOUR STORYS HOW GREAT? HAHA FUNNY YOU MADE ME LAUGH OUT LOAD ROFLing

Hey ---davidau ---your comments are a little on the harsh side. You can mellow a little can you not. It is by discussion and not by accusations that we all benefit. While I do not agree with ---connsaxman_jim--- on certain issues does not give me the right to not be civil with him. It is this that defines us as musicians ,,,the ability to disagree while the international language of music unites us. If music cannot teach us to be polite and respect one another what will,,politics maybe ,,I think not. So before you froth at the mouth just remeber that everytime you downgrade another musician you do so to the entire world of music . And in your case ---connsaxman_jim--- I am sorry to have to say this but (while --davidau is out of line with his comments and please accept my apologies on his behalf ) music in its purity has little room for patriotism in it. American horns- French forns - german horns- italian-- japanese etc etc , they may all be just a reflection of the times and tastes of people and society when these became popular. It is quite possible that a Conn Naked lady would sound exactly like a Yam if it had evolved over the years and was still being produced today. It is also possible that instruments are desired based on who made them popular ,,if Cannonball Adderly had never played a Super Twenty would we be able to imagine what it would sound like and thus want to own one. We will never know. i think that those who prefer vintage horns or American or French do so because the sounds that they seek are more a function of who popularized them and not necessarily the instruments used,,even if using the original implements does make the task a little easier. That is why I suggested in another forum that possibly we choose and manufacture instruments with sounds that are pleasant to our ears and that might be a function of the language we grew up with ,,,but nobody caught my drift. I think that if I had never heard a Keilwerth I might guess that it was german just by its sound. One thing for sure CAN WE ALL AGREE THAT WE SHOULD ALL TAKE OUR HATS OFF TO THOSE THAT DID SO MUCH TO RENDER THE SAXOPHONE THE MOST POPULAR INSTRUMENT WORLDWIDE,,,they left us a great inheritance and they never argued over brands. If truth be known they did so with less than perfect instruments.

Well said, Selmer. Hats off to you too.

be honest the only horn can better then selmer is vintage buffet

I think that I caught your drift Selmer. I'll agree that the language and even the dialect that we speak does have some influance on our playing styles and the horns we choose, but I'm sure that there is more to it than that. There is the music that we like to listen to and our own unique lifestyles to consider also. Me? I like riding my antique harley-davidson. I have a hotrod project in the garage and I like to play old Conn saxophones. I perfer the Chu Berry era horns. And you know what? When I go out to play in some smoke filled old bar, no one cares what make of sax I play except me.

true I guess that is the point. I mean you have to accept others opinion even if you believe in different I so defensive with jim, because of his language. i believe people here know what i am talking about he thought he knew everything, and he want everyone believe what he believes. Thats impossible, if you give respect to people, people will give respect to you

What language are you speaking of David? I have been respectful towards you, but I am not going to put up with your language and lack of respect. I never claim to know everything, but my own experience and my love for saxophones has taught me a lot. I have done a lot of research, and I do know what I am talking about. Selmer 4evr is right about the differences between American Selmer and French Selmer. It's the American Selmer monopoly started by George Bundy that I have a problem with; not the French Selmer. Perhaps I should have been clearer about that. I'm not a big fan of the French sound. I prefer the sound of the old American horns; especially the Conns and Kings. I went to France a couple years ago, post 9-11. I mention 9-11 because it took forever to get my passport in the mail, and waiting for airport security to check luggage and everything. It was a mess! The trip was also very expensive! Still, my grandfather was born in France, and Paris is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, so I really wanted to go there. But the minute I got off the plane it was obvious that the French people didn't have much respect for the Americans. I was taught to be polite. Ladies first, open doors for others, and to be courteous and respectful to other people. I was treated like a criminal! Now if I had purple hair, tattoos and body piercings and a T-Shirt that said I HATE FRANCE, I could understand the hostility. (Even though I still believe you should never judge a person according to their hairstyle, tattoos, etc. Some people struggle with individuality and do crazy things to stand out! That doesn't make them bad people or worthy of the kind of disrespect and rudeness that I received), but I came well dressed and clean cut. I've traveled to England, The Netherlands, Australia, Scottland, Germany, Belgium, France, Canada and Mexico, and everywhere but France I have been treated very well.

Hey connsaxman_jim lets not talk about post 9-11 it was bad everywhere . Just last autumn I returned from Argentina via Kennedy with a canadian passport and it was hell . American customs and immigration is no picnik and state troopers are world renown for their brashness . That being said it does't mean that americans in general and american musicians are likewise!!!! Say Jim what do you think of the Alto Silversonics what are they worth in pristine shape? As for you davidau I once spoke to Daniel Deffayet who told me If I would have my preference I would play Selmer . He was forced to play Buffet because it was Mule who was with Selmer when Mule died he took over his post but had already signed with buffet. A great classical saxophonist and bass Clarinetist for the Montreal Symphony ( Gilles Moisan ) now passed away said this after trying the best that buffet could produce the prestige S3 . I have always played buffet clarinets and they should stick to making clarinets they don't have it in sax. I owned a Prestige it was fun for a while but intonation was very defficient .

Davidau go to this site

i guess you are a REAL selmer fan what do you think of Selmer VII alto and Selmer mark VI soprano

here is what i already said about selmer I have owned and played many a sax from cigar cutter to a few markVIs to SA80s to Series IIs and I have tried some series IIIs but a VII is unique . i also owned a few buffet prestiges . Let me tell you about a discussion with Londeix . The last time he came to Montreal for masterclasses I spoke with him on this particular subject. Unhappy with my Series II I asked him if he could pick out a horn for me the next time he was at Selmer Paris ( I studied with one of his prize students and I had good connections here). I had tried some of his horn picks ( for his students) and they are amazing. I also told him that I always preferred VIIs to any horn I had ever tried. He responded this way: (All Selmers saxes from BAs to SBA, to VI, to SA80 to Ser II are all, in his words ;beautiful mares( de belles juments );. The MarkVII is more of a thorough-bred stallion( etalon ); wild temperamental and difficult to tame, but when you can tame and harness it,,,, nothing comes close. Anyway I still love, own, and play MarkVIIs even though I try just about everything . One more thing of interest ,,you have to know what you are doing when you pick a horn. All the horns he picked for his students were never liked at the beginning. This was especially true of the VIIs, they showed their potential after six months or so !!!! My ex-teacher's horn ( 1977 ) took one year to develop and lose its original resistance ,,I have tried to purchase it on many occasions no dice!!!! He plays classical to jazz and it works on everything. The horn slices through any section. but after listening to connsaxjim I might buy a Silversonic just to own and collect and I am also looking for a Leblanc rationale and I have also ordered a Selmer in sterling silver that Delangle or Londeix will choose for me. so i am open minded . But in all this davidau my clarinet is a Buffet R13 are you happy?

yea thanks for answering i owned a selmer mark VII alto late 1980 and its the best horn i ever tried i will stick with it 4ever now

The King Super 20's and Silversonic altos are amazing horns. I have a 1958 Super 20 tenor. I haven't played it too much because it's in very nice shape with all original lacquer, and I've been trying to keep it nice, but I do play it on those "smoke free inside air conditioned" gigs occasionally, and studio gigs. I've been keeping my eyes open for a Silversonic alto, but I have been pretty tight financially lately with college and other expenses, so it will probably be a while before I'll be buying any more horns. I still have a few more project horns to finish up. I completed restoration of my 1925 Conn New Wonder Series II soprano a week ago, and I'm just getting started on New Wonder Series I baritone

How much will a almost mint silversonic fetch retail ??? no pearls on the side keys .

what serial number is yours engraved ???

Davidau ---what serial number is yours engraved ??? Jim what are the best ser numbs Thanks

serial number is N.317444 the late VII

ser numb 250xxx to 275xxx are among the best-----make sure ---if you find one with a very clear and loud C 9( usually a little muffled ) with octave buy it . Also if you want yours to look cool the original keyguard was unique it had two number 7s one on top of the other if you find one buy it

The best serial numbers would be those horns made from 1955-1960, serial numbers 340,001-370,000. My Super 20 tenor is serial number 366,471 which I figure to be either late 1957 or early 1958. I paid $3500 for my tenor in mint condition. Mine does have the pearl side key touches. It's probably worth $4000 or more. A Silversonic alto in mint condition without pearl side key touches is worth $3200-$3600.

This needs to be posted, even if no one reads it. DON'T call a brand or a horn the best until you've played them all, just say its your favorite. EXE. SML, and other small saxophone companies are my favorites.

I'm late to this discussion, but I'm going to side with Connsaxman_jim here. I have tried literally thousands of horns in the last 36 years, new and old. I have tried them all,(except P. Mauriats thus far) and I'm still trying them now every chance I get. I consider myself as having a good ear and being a good judge of tone. Of course, for the individual, tone is a subjective thing, and everyone has a somewhat different idea as to what the perfect horn sounds like. The largest part of the tone will come from the player himself. However, each brand or model of horn has certain built-in characteristics. I really never understood the fascination and adoration of the Mark VI. It is by far the most inconsistent sounding and playing horn of all the horns I tried. I've lost count of how many Mark VI's I've already played, but from one horn to another, they have sounded differently, and even the positions of the keys sometimes felt just a little different. One horn would sound dark, the next was bright and shrill, the next one dull and flat with a tone no better than some of these cheap $200 Chinese made horns. I am talking about horns that were in a good state of repair. Of course, has anyone stopped to think of why there are so many Mark VI's available when other makes and models are harder to come by? Of course, there is a great demand for them, but that demand comes more from reputation than experience. I know many will disagree, but that is my experience. I own a Conn 6M and a 1954 The Martin. Both horns have more balls than any Mark VI I've played. Also, I've tried lots of Bueschers and Kings as well, and the king Zephyrs and Super 20, the Buescher Tru-Tone, Aristocrat and 400 are up there with the Conn and Martin. If I had enough money, I would own all of these great horns. They are all solid works of art, and they sound like it. I've played lots of modern horns and this is just my opinion. Yamahas are very well made horns. However their tone is too generic for me. They have their fans, but it also says something that in Tokyo, where I am now until next year, I see tons of used Custom Yamahas for sale at dirt cheap prices. US $300 for a YAS-475 to US $1, 700 for a Custom. Meanwhile, used Conn 6M's are selling for US $5500, and I saw a The Martin for US $6500. A Super 20 was going for the same. Mark VI's meanwhile are hovering at around US $3000 to $5000. Keilwerth has based its models on the Conns with the keywork of the Selmer and then a few touches of their own. Good horns, but thus far, they can't touch my 6M either. Yanigasawa is a nice horn, great keywork, but it still lacks the kind of character I look for in a horn. Vince Herring and Gary Bartz, two men I am very friendly with and whom I consider excellent players, both play Yani's and they like them. However, Gary once tried my Conn, and he said that if he could get that sound with the keywork of the Yani, he would want it. I am still undecided about Cannonballs. They look and feel nice, but I found them to be inconsistent as well. Just my opinion. I have yet to try a P. Mauriat, but as soon as the shops in Tokyo start stocking them, I am going to try them. However, I hear good things about them, and I hope it's not all hype. This argument can go on forever, and it no doubt will, but I still think that there is just something about these old American horns that give them a special sound. Especially for jazz, because America is where jazz began, and American saxes were the epitome of the jazz sound for many years. It really wasn't until people like Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Benny Carter, etc., came back from their extended stays in Paris with their new Selmers that it became standard in jazz. Dexter Gordon played a Conn 30M and a 10M until his horns were stolen in Paris. Listen to Sonny Rollins recording of The Bridge, and you're hearing a Buescher Aristocrat tenor. Art Pepper is using a The Martin on his early recordings prior to his imprisonment. Bird played the Conn 6M and the King Super 20, and I've seen pictures of him with Chu Berrys, Bueschers, the Grafton, and whatever else he could lay his hands on after he hocked his horns for drugs. I have never seen him in a photo with a Selmer. Aside from build quality, another thing that gives vintage horns the edge IMO, is that these horns, having been played over a long period achieve a certain resonance and its tone is tempered over time. My father talked about that, and Dr. Rick, my former repair tech also talked about it. Why do you think for example that so many violinists want a Stradivarius or AmatI? Craftsmanship and sound. Same for saxes or any other handmade instrument. Anyway, just my 50 cents.