Saxophone Forum


by chalazon
(547 posts)
7 years ago

snap in pads on Buescher saxes

So, here's one for you, gentle

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  1. by kneejerk52
    (397 posts)

    7 years ago

    Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

    well break a few rivets under the snaps and that alone can change your mind. on the other hand getting rid of the rivets can also lead to a load of crap, you could possibly bend the cups and then it can be really hard to seat the pads. i did a repad on a 400 alto with snaps and the olny prob. was a broken rivet on one which i replaced with a regular. and 3 of the snaps broke taking them off and it's not easy to find them either. 6 of 1 , half a dozen of the other

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    1. by JBTSAX
      (364 posts)

      7 years ago

      Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

      It should make very little difference in how the sax plays if the resonators are replaced. As long as the customer is aware that removing the spuds from the keycups and replacing the snap in resonators will probably lower the collector's value of the sax, I'd say go for it. The spuds in the key cups are easily removed by using a grinding wheel on your dremel tool. John

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      1. by chalazon
        (547 posts)

        7 years ago

        Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

        the collector's value is exactly the issue my fellow tech is focusing on. We do inform the customer..I think the horns play more positively with modern pads..some of the horns have the spuds soft soldered in..makes removing them a snap, so to speak

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        1. by MusicMedic
          (5 posts)

          7 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          I often install modern pads with the Buescher Snaps. It works very well. I punch a larger hole in the center, shellac the pads and then put the snap on. The value of the horn is preserved, the instrument is not modified, and the pads installed are the kind I want to use. All the best! Curt Altarac www.MusicMedic.com

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        2. by chalazon
          (547 posts)

          7 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          now that's a great idea! Next time I have the chance, that's exactly what I'll do. Thanks for the great tip.

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        3. by STEVE GOODSON
          (291 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          You'll get even better results if you will remove the metal plate from the back of the snap in pads and install it under the modern pad. I usually glue the plate onto the back of the new pad.

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        4. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Depending upon the type of pads used, adding the metal backing from the original pad can make the setup too thick for the key cups especially for the smaller keys. This link provides some excellent information on this topic. www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20480

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        5. by STEVE GOODSON
          (291 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Aside from maintaining the originality of the Buescher, which I personally think is quite important, you should consider modern pads utilizing the original snap in pad system. Here's how I do it: Remove the old pads and line them up sequentially on the bench Put the snaps back on the corresponding nipples in the key cups, don't mix them up! remove the metal backs of the original pads and clean off the old glue take the new pads you're going to use (.160 thickness Saxgourmet) and punch holes in them corresponding to the hole size of the old pads. Thick pads will not work! Saxgourmet pads have a very firm felt, and the kangaroo leather does not stick. It is essential that the new holes be centered. glue the old metal back firmly to the new pads, using E6000 adhesive. Clamp them to be sure to get a good bond and avoid excessive thickness due to too much glue. make appropriate size resonators from flat metal Conn/King style resonators (you can get them from most supply houses), punching the appropriate sized hole. Big resonators are good. Small resonators are for pussies. paint the entire inside of the pad cup with shellac, using a small brush treat the pads with Mojo's never stick pad powder and iron them install the pads in the cups. Remember, they should fit tightly. place the resonator on top of the pad install the snap using a delrin hammer and jeweler's anvil adjust as necessary, using a heat gun. Adjustments should be minimal. Prior to this procedure, it is essential that the tone holes be absolutely level and the key cups absolutely straight. Do not begin until they are!!!! The above procedure results in a much nicer job, and the addition of resonators brings out the best in a Buescher.

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        6. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          You mention adding a flat metal resonator on top of the pad and then adding the snap. I thought the snap WAS the original domed Buescher resonator to begin with. John

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        7. by STEVE GOODSON
          (291 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          The sanp was there to hold in the pad. It lacked sufficient surface area to act as a resonator. The patent documents do not mention any effect on sound, only the mechanical act of securing the pad. Adding resonators will significantly improve the performance of Bueschers. I've done it around a hundred times, much to the delight of my customers.

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        8. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Sorry to disagree, but the original Buescher snap on pads had domed resonators were nearly as large as the plastic Selmer style resos that are used on modern pads. This link has some pictures that show some of the sizes on the medium and small pads. www.cybersax.com/Buescher%20Resto%20Issues.html Even though the patent didn't mention it, Buescher clearly advertised that the snap on resonator was intended to enhance the tone as the text from the ad at this link indicates. www.saxpics.com/buescher/400.htm Snap-On Pad with Tone Resonating Centers Brilliance when you want it -- tone all the time. Buescher utilizes a different type of pad, called the "Snap On Pad". It is snapped in place like the fastener of a glove. The snap button is a large metal disc which holds the pad securely in place and acts as a sonic resonator. This brightens tone -- greatly increases brilliance and power. All in all it seems to me to be a bit disingenuous to go to all the trouble of gluing the original metal backing to the new pad in the interest of keeping the integrity of the original Buescher set up and then radically changing the resonator on the top of the pad by sandwiching a flat metal resonator under a perfectly good metal domed one. That's just the way I see it. John

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        9. by STEVE GOODSON
          (291 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Your inexperience with this matter clearly shows. (1) Selmer nylon resonators come in sizes up to 34 mm. The largest Buescher snap used was 14mm. (2) the advertisement you reference appears to be a genuine one, but apparently Buescher didn't believe the sonic difference was sufficient to claim a benefit in their patent (3) If you had overhauled as many Bueschers as I have you would know that since these horns are all at a very minimum 40+ years old, the snaps wear and the pads tend to spin like wheels on an axle. Hence the glue. I've overhauled hundreds of Bueschers, and this is a very real problem. The additional resonator adds to the performance of the horn. The original snap was woefully inadequate for modern needs.

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        10. by Thomas Bowles
          (13 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          I've got resonators installed on all the keys except the palm keys on my 400. I used old Buescher pad backs becuase they were available and pre-punched and easy to install. They may be a bit on the thick side, but the difference in the way the horn plays and sounds is like night and day. The biggest original sanps were only about a half inch in diameter, which hardly qualifies as a resonator by modern standards. Adding the old pad backs behind the snaps was like adding a turbocharger to an old car. Suddenly there's the power you have been looking for. You can also easily remove them if you wish to bring the horn back to original condition. The pad backs I used were brass, and after a bit of polishing, they look great.

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        11. by chalazon
          (547 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Y'know, I rather think that any of the procedures outlined by the gentlemen participating in this discussion, if done with skill, patience, and competency, will result in an entirely acceptable result.....it's really not brain surgery. I've seen work done by other techs using various differing techniques with excellent results. I've also seen some not so excellent results, but that's a story for another day

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        12. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          In the area of instrument repair there are legitimate differences of opinion. Each technician develops techniques and methods based on their experience that work the best for them. It is rare for a competent repair tech to claim that their way is the best way, or that their way is the right way, or that their way is the only way. In fact, in my experience the very best techs simply say this way works for me and leave it at that. There are many highly experienced techs who overhaul Busescher saxes who do not find it necessary to change or augment the original Buescher resos. In fact practically all of the Buescher rebuilds offered for sale by Gayle Fredenburg at Vintage Sax, and Sarge Stransky at World Wide Sax are advertised with original Buescher snap on resonators. To make comments like small resonators are for Pussies and that you have to add larger resonators to bring out the best in a Buescher is a highly subjective individual opinion that although stated as a fact, remains just that—an opinion. There are countless players like myself who prefer the sound and feel of the Bueschers with as close to the original set up as possible. Not everyone is after the bright and edgy pop sound that is currently popular. If a player in that style wants their sax set up to play with that sound, that’s fine but that does not mean it is the Gospel that everyone must follow. How stating a legitimate difference of opinion could be considered a slam upon someone in a forum such as this escapes me. And by the way, the largest Buescher resos in altos and tenors are in fact 19 mm (3/4") not 14 mm as previously reported. In fact Buescher made them as large as 7/8". Save for the half dozen largest pads on an alto sax the Buescher resos are very comparable in size with those standard on a Selmer. And on those largest key sizes, the 19 mm Buescher snap on resos are only about 30% smaller than their Selmer counterparts. John

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        13. by STEVE GOODSON
          (291 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Well, John, I did nothing more than give my opinion and explain my technique. It is different from what most technicians do, because in this age of amplified instruments a greater resonator surface is needed for professional players, IMHO. If you like the old way of doing things, so be it. If you wish to improve the performance of your horn, try something different. I could care less. I've got 17 Buescher saxes in my personal collection, reflecting pretty much all the variations in production over the years. I've overhauled hundreds of them since I opened my first shop in 1972. I have found improvements which I believe are worthwhile and they have been applauded by my clients worldwide. You are, I believe, quite incorrect on your statement (not to mention your math on surface area) about the maximum size of Buescher snaps. I believe you have relied on the post of Dave Dolson to your inquiry on SOTW, where he clearly states he eyballed it because he couldn't measure them. I maintain a very large inventory of Buescher parts, including hundreds of snaps, and have checked the sizes used on my collection, including a Buescher bass. None is larger than 14mm. Get your facts straight before you post.

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        14. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          I have a Buescher tenor on my bench at work as we speak and the largest snap in resonators are 19 mm or 3/4 inch. I could send you a pic if you like. I also used my eyeball---to read the dial on my expensive digital calipers set to read millimeters. Dave just confirmed that the altos have the same size in the bell keys. (By the way I am flattered that you read everything I post on SOTW. I didn't know I had such a fan.) The largest original Mark VI plastic resos I had in my Super Balanced Alto measure 27 mm. 19 mm is 70% of 27 mm OR 30% smaller. To see that Buescher actually made the resos up to 7/8" see page 5 at this link. I hope that these statements suffice to clarify my facts for you? www.saxpics.com/buescher/truetone/truetone-snapon.htm You would do well to remember that there are many players who study and perform classical literature( in this age of amplified instruments) who play Beuscher saxes with large chamber mouthpieces in order to get a different sound than the one you are trying to achieve by adding greater resonator surface. Your modifications are certainly a valid approach, but whether they actually improve the performance of the instrument or simply make it play differently is, of course, a matter of opinion and taste. John

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        15. by chalazon
          (547 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          ah yes, opinion and taste.

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        16. by STEVE GOODSON
          (291 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Of course I realize that there is a market for instruments that are classical specific. This is why our company has recently introduced a classical specific model, the Marcel alto saxophone, This instrument has a unique bore and tone hole placement, and is made from rose brass. The pads (Lucien Deluxe) are fitted with veyr different resonators than we usually use on our saxophones. This instrument produces a very dark tone, ideal for classical music. It was a tremendous hit with our dealer network at the NAMM show, and production is now totally sold out through July 2008.

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        17. by chalazon
          (547 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          cool.

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        18. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Quote: STEVE GOODSON "I maintain a very large inventory of Buescher parts, including hundreds of snaps, and have checked the sizes used on my collection, including a Buescher bass. None is larger than 14mm. Get your facts straight before you post." forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=725745&postcount=4

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        19. by chalazon
          (547 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          y'know..I had a feeling this would happen when I first posted the question..I find it all highly informative and very entertaining...just an opinion...

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        20. by chalazon
          (547 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          You both possess a wealth of knowledge...I continue to learn from you both..thanks, and keep the faith.

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        21. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          Hi Chalazon. If you are in Boise, we are practically neighbors since I live next door in Utah. You have a terrific website. Being a retired band director I laughed myself silly watching the band mishaps video. I hope none of the students was seriously injured. Maybe we'll meet up at the next NAPBIRT Convention. John

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      2. by MRFIXIT
        (19 posts)

        6 years ago

        Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

        For those who want to keep the snaps, Ferrees tools sells new pads with the metal back for Bueschers. I would not spend the shop time transfering the metal back plate when I can get the right thing unless it is an emergency repair. Wish we could get snaps and spuds, too!

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        1. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)

          6 years ago

          Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

          The sets of Ferrees Buescher pads that were inherited by our shop when another facility closed were found to be unusable due to the fact that they were too thick for the Buescher key cups and very poorly sized. Regular .160 pads that have the resonator removed and the center punched to accommodate the snap on RESONATOR have been found to work much better than the Ferrees imitations. Curt Alterac at MusicMedic.com sells the metal backed Buescher Snap on pads, but I have heard that he prefers to use other pads when overhauling Bueschers himself. John

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          1. by chalazon
            (547 posts)

            6 years ago

            Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

            jbt..thanks for the nice post..yup, Idaho and Utah..probably two of the most wonderful places on the earth to live..I love it here, and always enjoy visiting my friends in beautiful Utah..unfortunatly, the shop is closed, and I've returned to doing the repair at a local retail store..life goes on..being a person who does'nt matter, I find myself asking myself who I'd rather have a cup of coffee with, if you know what I mean..I think it would be you. thanks for the fine tips and information you've imparted in the past..I look forward to more..and maybe we'll bump into each other one of these days..keep the faith

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          2. by MRFIXIT
            (19 posts)

            6 years ago

            Re: snap in pads on Buescher saxes

            Sorry if this shows up twice due to a computer glitch. I recently finished a overhaul of a 1925 Buescher with factory white pads. I compared them with NOS factory Buescher brown pads and new Ferrees pads. They were all the SAME thickness. I had to do NO special shimming or unusual bending to use the new Ferrees pads and am very happy with the result. The only problem spots were 1. the octave pads did not have the tiny snaps, and 2. since I ordered a pad set before taking the sax apart to measure cups, I had two pads the wrong size. I used the old backs and .160 pads and a hole punch there. In short, I think you will get a quality product ordering from Mr. Ferree or Mr. Alterac.

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