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Forum » Sax Repair » How Important are Honesty and


by JBTSAX
(364 posts)
16 years ago

How Important are Honesty and

In selecting a repair tech to

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  2. by JBTSAX
    (364 posts)
    16 years ago

    Do You Trust Your Repair Tech?

    Seeing no response to the original heading, let me try a different approach. At the NAPBIRT Convention there was a clinic on developing customer loyalty. Part of the discussion had to do with treating the repair customer fairly and honestly so they would be inclined to bring their instrument to you again. So....Does anyone have a repair tech they trust? How did that repair tech earn your trust and loyalty. Thanks. John


    1. by saxophonist_104
      (148 posts)
      16 years ago

      Re: Do You Trust Your Repair Tech?

      i do--me! in all seriousness, my employer. he's straightforward, doesn't take shortcuts, and doesn't sugar coat anything ("oh that little ding on the rib is nothing"), nor does he tell you that your instrument is crap because he realizes that any instrument, no matter how inferior the brand, was probably all the person could afford and it deserves the same respect the owner would give it. ...wow that was a really long sentence...


      1. by cuber
        (653 posts)
        16 years ago

        Re: Do You Trust Your Repair Tech?

        paul maslin, at pmwoodwind


    2. by kneejerk52
      (397 posts)
      16 years ago

      Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

      honesty and integrity in life are very important, but when you are talking about dealing with somebody with a talent you have things to consider. Sometimes the most talented people are not the most honest or maybe easy to get along with so you put up with crap cause you like their work. Sometimes people are great people and in their mind do great work and honestly try hard but the end result sucks. it's really hard to find a happy medium cause i personally have seen both kinds. Price is an issue that plays in both cases. Until now i haven't looked for this pro organization but will, maybe that will solve our problem.


      1. by STEVE GOODSON
        (291 posts)
        16 years ago

        Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

        Almost none of the "famous" repair techs (Emilio, Paul Masilin, Roberto, Joe Sax, Randy Jones, Sarge Stransky etc.) are members of NAPBIRT or any other group. As a matter of fact, NAPBIRT and the other smaller groups represent only a miniscule percentage of people who are involved in the repair business. The requirement for joining NAPBIRT is the ability to write a check. Those people who have succeeded in the repair business have done so through a history of satisfied customers and referrals from existing customers.


        1. by JBTSAX
          (364 posts)
          16 years ago

          Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

          "The requirement for joining NAPBIRT is the ability to write a check." Actually here are the requirements listed on the NAPBIRT website. www.napbirt.org/mc/page.do MEMBER REQUIREMENTS Any person who has been or is presently involved in the profession of restoring, reconditioning or repairing band instruments may be considered a candidate for membership provided that he/she: -Has the technical skills to derive at least 50% of their income from an occupation in band instrument technology -Is at least 18 years of age -Has acquired his/her professional skill by successfully completing a recognized course in band instrument repair or has apprenticed under an established technician no less than three years or is self taught and has practiced professionally for at least five years. In addition a candidate for admission to the organization needs a minimum of two references who can attest to the level of your qualifications as a repair technician. I would not call 1,300 registered members of the NAPBIRT organization a miniscule percentage of people involved in the band instrument repair business. Would you classify this person as a "satisfied customer"? home.earthlink.net/~keithhenson/goodsonbeware.html


          1. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            If those requirements were enforced, it might mean something, but they aren't. Kieth Henson is a space case. He's been trying to draw atention to himself for many years through this. I note with interest that nothing ever came of this other than his website. NOTHING. Na Na. Zero. Just a website. Nothing more. There are, of course, webiste which state the earth is flat as well. NAPBIRT's membership represents frar less than 5% of the technicians out there. I think that fits the definition of miniscule.


          2. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Actually Keith Henson has made a very strong case for the lack of honesty and integrity of the repair tech he is writing about. If it were not all true he could have been sued for libel and forced to remove the site a long time ago. This hasn't happened. To date over 6,000 people have gone to his site. That's a lot of publicity. The point of my thread Steve is that the reputation of a repair tech is spread by word of mouth and by electronic communication in today's world. Those who treat their customers with honesty and integrity and charge fair prices for the best quality work are going to build a much larger customer base through their reputation than those who treat their customers poorly and gouge them with high prices and do substandard work. Professional organizations such as NAPBIRT exist so that members can share their knowledge and techniques with one another to raise the overall skill of the profession to a higher level. It is not just a matter of what you can get out of the organization, but what you can contribute to help others. I can't imagine a professional in any field not wanting to participate in the organization that represents their chosen craft. Please tell me where you are getting your figures that 1,300 members of NAPBIRT are 5% of the total band instrument repair techs. I do know that the membership of NAPBIRT represents the percentage of people in that field who are interested in learning and growing in the profession and sharing their skills and knowledge with others. It is their loss for those who don't care to join IMO.


          3. by cuber
            (653 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            i think id rather take my horns to a good repair tech whos not in NAPBIRT than an average one who is in the organization


          4. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            It's very clear that far, far more technicians choose NOT to become a member of NAPBIRT than the number who choose to join. Everybody knows NAPBIRT is out there, and the dues are very modest, so there must be another reason they avoid NAPBIRT in droves.


          5. by cuber
            (653 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            what advantages does it give you, and are those worth the cost?


          6. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Good question cuber. Go to this link for more information. www.napbirt.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=55483&orgId=napbirt


          7. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            If there are all of these supposed advantages, then the question all America wants to know is why do the overwhelming majority of technicians avoid NAPBIRT membership like the plague? NAPBIRT has been around for many years, the dues are low, everybody in the industry knows they are out there, but only a miniscule number of the total technicians involved in teh industry choose to join. There must be a reason why NAPBIRT membership is apparently considered to be a negative. I have my theories, but would be interested to know an explanation from a NAPBIRT member such as John.


          8. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Sounds like sour grapes to me. It could be that certain narcissistic people just don't fit in. Do 'ya think?


          9. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            So Steve, exactly what do you find wrong with the National Association of Professional Band Instrument Repair Technicians and what are your "theories" as to why the membership isn't larger than it is?


          10. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I can't speak for others, but it's apparent that the overwhelming majority of the industry runs the other way when NAPBIRT membership comes up. I have a few good friends who are members. They are people I respect. That being said, I believe a lot of people in the industry feel as I do: NAPBIRT has absolutely no credibility, because the do not and never have enforced either their membership qualifications or code of ethics. They look good on paper, but they are not enforced. It's really, to my observation, more of a social club that allows people who have demonstrated the ability to write a check (seems to be the only real membership requirement, it's certainly not repair skills or expertise) the opportunity to claim a professional credential, which is really meaningless. Many of the well known saxophone technicians I talk with tell me they don't want to be assoicated with a group of hacks. This would certainly explain why the overwhelming majority of technicians choose NOT to have anything to do with NAPBIRT. I know my personal decision not to belong to NAPBIRT is based primarily on the fact that they allow people such as yourself to remain members. I voluntarily resigned several years ago, and have resisted attempts to recruit me back into membership. I want nothing to do with a "professional" organization that doesn't maintain even minimum standards. If you look around, none of the "name" technicians are members, and I think that's the reason. Say what you will, the fact of the matter is that less than 5% of the industry proclaims NAPBIRT membership, in spite of the fact that everyone knows it's out there and what it's about. That pretty much says it all, IMHO. If there was anything to NAPBIRT, people would join. Almost none of the technicians in the industry choose to do so.


          11. by jamterry
            (573 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I take my horns to Paul Maslin in Chicago , or Gary Chen in hollywood. They charge me top dollar, but they do it right


          12. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I don't know Gray, but you're in great hands with Paul Maslin. He's one of the best of all time. He's not a NAPBIRT member.


          13. by saxophonist_104
            (148 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            what the heck is NAPBIRT?


          14. by cuber
            (653 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            i think its more important that its done right than they are part of some organization, and im willing to pay more for that


          15. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            The National Association of Professional Band Instrument Repair Technicians. You can learn more about this organization at this link: www.napbirt.org/mc/page.do John


          16. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I find it quite amusing Steve that you are concerned with the enforcement of a CODE OF ETHICS. You and I do agree on one thing, and is that NAPBIRT is certainly not place for someone like yourself.


          17. by chalazon
            (547 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            It would seem to me that honesty and integrity would be important (or not) to the individual tech., and membership (or not) in NAPBIRT would have very little to do with it. If one considers ones self to be honest, and to act with integrity, then there is of necessity an internal code of ethics that one follows. If you're lying, or cheating, you know you are, and no amount of preverication can change that.If you look a man in the eye and tell him you are an honest man, you know whether or not you're telling the truth. How you choose to deal with that is up to you.


          18. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Welcome back Chalazon. I've missed reading your posts. The idea for this thread came from a clinic given at the NAPBIRT Conference by a tech from Phoenix. The point of his presentation was that how you treat people determines whether or not they become loyal customers and give you their business in the future. The old adage if you treat a customer well they may tell one or two people, but if your treat a customer badly they will tell ten or more is certainly true. In fact I know some real good examples of that axiom from reading saxophone discussion forums. John


          19. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            John: apparently, most of the repair technicians in the world also agree with me, and want nothing to do with NAPBIRT. I think an organization like NAPBIRT is ideal for someone like you.


          20. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I'm sorry you just don't fit in with that group Steve. There is a lot of fun and camaraderie at the conventions, not to mention the unselfish sharing with one another. There are many excellent people in that organization who freely share others their knowledge and repair techniques that have taken them years to learn and develop. They do not do this to make profit or to boost their egos or to make themselves famous, but to raise the level of repairs across the industry and to help the newer members to the trade to learn and grow so that one day they will take the place of the seasoned veterans. I don't imagine someone with your sense of values could possibly understand what motivates these people. Reg Thorpe who has forgotten more about woodwind repair than many of us will ever know went to the enormous task of putting all of his knowledge into the excellent text book that you yourself have recommended. Reg is hardly a hack as you mentioned in your previous post. In fact he is genuinely embarrassed when paid a compliment on his accomplishments. Rather than make money on his publication which he had every right to do, he gives all of the profits of the sale of his book to benefit the organization of which he is proud to be a member. You can project your feelings about the organization to other techs who don't choose to participate all you want, Steve but the fact is that you don't know what most of the repair technicians in the world think about NAPBIRT or think about anything else for that matter. It is sheer arrogance to think that you do. Your Vespro video that ends with the sentence "I know that ALL THE TEACHERS IN THE UNITED STATES endorse this [Vespro saxophone] for their students 'cause it's quite a value" is further evidence of how your arrogant mind works. How can you possibly know that all the teachers endorse your instrument? I find it hard to believe that anyone would make such a foolish statement, let alone put it in a video on a website for the whole world to see. Wow. . .


          21. by chalazon
            (547 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            hi, John, it's good to be back. Oh, by the way. I'm a NAPBIRT member................


          22. by cuber
            (653 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            all teachers endorse verpero? Whatever you are on, i dont want any


          23. by chalazon
            (547 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I,m a teacher..private lessons for twenty years..I've never seen a vespro..heard tell, tho


          24. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            We've been selling Vespro for almost 20 years, in pretty big numbers. They're very popular in the UK. Since our dealer network is not wall to wall, coast to coast, and never has been, you may be in an area where they're not available readily. The have a huge following among teachers. As far as unit sales go, it's our biggst seller. At one time there were some pro model Vespros, some in solid silver, some with rolled tone holes.


          25. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I should have said "all the teachers that matter", but I didn't , so shoot me......


          26. by chalazon
            (547 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I'm well aware that I'm a "teacher that doesn't matter", altho some of my students seem to enjoy their lessons, some have studied with me for years, and some have gone on to become professionals in their own right. I live in Boise, Idaho, for Pete's sake..how obscure is that? This is why I enjoy this forum..I get the opportunity to engage with knowledgeable experienced, and,yes, even famous saxophonists....people who really DO matter... from all across the nation. It's a very exciting experience for one as isolated as myself,... I do my best to remain humble.


          27. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Let's see Steve. That would make your statement read: I know ALL THE TEACHERS THAT MATTER in the United States endorse this for their students 'cause it's quite a value. You have now taken an arrogant and stupid statement and made it even more arrogant and more stupid with your correction. What about the teachers like myself who would not buy or recommend your instruments even if they were the best on the planet (which they're not) because to do so would reward and validate your dishonesty. Many members on Sax On The Web have made similar comments about you and your products. Your reputation is certainly growing as people get to know you on the internet. Back to the topic. How is your NAPBIRT bashing going over with the members over at Delphi BIR Forum? You know the one's you are trying to impress by being professional. Too bad they don't take the time to see you on your own forum. They might get to know who you really are underneath the oily facade and pretense. Does Ed Krause know that your friends think he is a hack?


          28. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            John: Why don't you post your question on the Delphi forum? Oh, that's right, you can't....You were banned forever from that forum for being a troll.....too bad....your NAPBIRT buddies who actually know you kicked you off.....I believe it's also true that you are the only member in the history of that forum to be banned forever....that's quite a distinction, particularly from people who have met you and gotten to know you.


          29. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Actually I am cutting and pasting your comments about NAPBIRT here and sending them by email to the NAPBIRT members on the Delphi Forum. Just thought you'd like to know. As you are aware, I was banned from Delphi BIR Forum not for being a troll, but for posting this link to your blog saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com and asking if the photo and caption reminded anyone else of a child molester. You poor taste joke on your blog did back then and it does today. Orpheus music must be proud of the professional image you represent of their company on the web. And for the record Steve, why are you no longer welcome on Sax on the Web---the saxophone forum with the largest active membership? And by the way what does everyone call you on that Forum? Something from Harri Potter if I remember right.


          30. by cuber
            (653 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            steve- there are no words to describe the ignorance and arrogance of your statement, and your posts on the web


          31. by saxophonist_104
            (148 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            . . . i sense tensions between jbtsax and steve . . . why does everything in this world have to end in violence?


          32. by azurealto
            (79 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?


          33. by azurealto
            (79 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            i don't know whose side i should be on... im leaning towards jbt, though.


          34. by MRFIXIT
            (19 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            First, I would NEVER take my horn to someone who acts like a cyber bully or stalker. Crazy people are no fun to deal with. Second, I could deal with a big ego if the talent, knowledge, service and quality were there to back it up. I would prefer to deal with a nice person who is that good, But fixed right is fixed right. Just a though from both my grandpas about dealing with bullies. They said (one in more colorful language than the other) when you get into a fight with a skunk, it's hard to tell who the skunk is after a while.


          35. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Forum posting policies In order to use these forums, users are required to provide their full name, a username, password and email address. Why does Mr. Fixit not have an email address? I thought it was required by this forum.


          36. by saxophonist_104
            (148 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            i think it's useful advice, MRFIXIT. and true, my sister says that she can stand a mean person as long as they're smart, and a dumb person as long as they're nice, but if there's one thing she can't stand is a dumb, mean person.


          37. by MRFIXIT
            (19 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            I checked and I had filled out all required info, including the email addresss. Thank you for asking. As far as NAPBIRT, it is like most other organizations. There are members who belong just because it is something to brag about on their resume. They give the ones who work for the organization and the other legit members a bad name. My favorite repair techs let their customers brag about their quality of work.


          38. by haduran
            (52 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            As a general notice to readers of these posts; I coined and use the "Mr. Fixit" name on SOTW. The posts here by a Saxquest "MRFIXIT" with a profile that is missing identifying information may or may not be fraudulent. I certainly have no legal dibs on the name; first come first served forum by forum. It is a remarkable coincidence that I have been involved in some SG/JBT SOTW controversy in the past where my nom d' screen would have been easily picked up. As it happens most of that was actually in support of SG instruments. I have never had any personal interaction with Mr'Goodson which would have caused me to comment on his integrity until this- third party stuff didn't get it for me. If this is some kind of a shill put in by some third party assisting Mr. Goodson though; lack of integrity doesn't begin to cover it.


          39. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Who besides MRFIXIT posts here with his name in all capital letters? John


          40. by MRFIXIT
            (19 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Gee, I looked and felt real when I woke up this morning! Do my family and customers know I am supposed to be a figment of someone's imagination or merely a puppet? Oh the horrors!!! :-) I do not have AIM, ICQ or Yahoo IM, and do not see a second place to enter an address. I've had the nickname Mr Fix it since at least Jr High. That's a long time before Mr. Gore invented the internet. I hope there are others who are up for discussing sax repair here.


          41. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            We have an excellent Yahoo group devoted specifically to saxophone repair. with about five hundred members. It's very active, and all aspects of repair are discussed. You can read the messages on the site or get them in your email. All non-trolls (that would be you, John) are welcome to participate or just lurk and learn. Membership requires approval for this moderated group. Here's a link: launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair


          42. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Hi MRFIXIT, Go to the "my saxquest" link on the left of the screen Then click "Account Registration Info" That will take you to the input field where you can add your email address which is a requirement of this forum. This is a cut and paste from "posting policies" Forum posting policies In order to use these forums, users are required to provide their full name, a username, password and email address. Once you have met the requirement of this forum and provided a valid email address, I will send you a nice personal message to get to know you better as I have done with others on this forum. Thanks. John


          43. by STEVE GOODSON
            (291 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            John has a lot of time on his hands and sends a lot of nice personal messages. I've gotten some really choice ones, as have many people I know. If you love what he posts on the net, just wait until he gets your email address!


          44. by MRFIXIT
            (19 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Dear Jbtsax, You win! Congrats! Elvis has left the building! Best wishes to all! MRFIXIT


          45. by JBTSAX
            (364 posts)
            16 years ago

            Re: How Important are Honesty and Integrity?

            Don't gloat just yet. I have sent an email to the forum moderator to check your true identity. I am thinking you are probably Tom Tapscott from Clarksville Tennessee or one of the other toadys from Goodson's forum. Tom was recently caught infecting Sax on the Web posting as "saxhorn" and shilling Goodson's videos so it wouldn't surprise me if you you are both one in the same. Nice try anyway. Hey Steve how 'bout bringing back old Thomas Bowles we kind of miss him around here. : )


        2. by Saxquest
          (420 posts)
          16 years ago

          Re: How Important are Honesty and

          This thread has taken a nasty personal turn and I'm shutting it down. I've deleted a few posts and locked it down for further posting. MRFIXIT is a real person and has every right to post in this forum. To jbtsax and STEVE GOODSON. Honestly guys, take your bickering elsewhere. I'm not, nor is anyone here, interested in seeing personal attacks in any way shape or form regardless of wether you or anyone elses thinks they're justified. The next time I see a post from either one of you that I feel is a personal attack I will remove you from this forum. I'm serious. I've asked nicely in the past and that doesn't seem to matter. Consider this public notice.