I'm biased, due to the instructors I've had, but my faves include, Allen Rippe (Scheidt School of Music- U of Memphis, old Sinta protege( who has the most beautiful and unique sound I've ever heard. Don Sinta, he's simply the man. Houlik on tenor and Taimur Sullivan (Prism quartet) does things with a bari that simply defy imagination. I love listening to Mule, John Sampen, Murphy, McCallister(both of whom were campers at interlochen when I worked there, probably the last time I was better than either of them=) )

I'm with you all the way. Are we precisely mimicing, no...but it's interesting to see the influences of different preformers that mold their concept of the saxophone. Pulling out Pagannini violin Caprices are great for developing sound, and a whole lot of technique as well! I also think that listening to vocalists are great musicians to listen to. The saxophone is capable of the nuances that a human voice has, and to try to imitate it is well worth the time. Much like how jazz players transcibe often, the same can be done with saxophone with classical music. I've transcribed some Schubert lieder and I think its done great things for my playing. Vocalists, string players, wind players...etc. We can all benefit from listening to various performers to mold our own concepts for the saxophone

Bibim, jazz vibrato of the time. There really was no such thing as a classical sax vibrato in the early days, the style was derived from classical clarinet, which has no vibrato. I am damn sure that mule started playing sax first as his dad did - he took lessons from his dad, though he surpassed him fairly quick. he then began taking piano lessons for free from a man in paris I want to say it was. though he was not very good, mule quickly came even to his teacher and the teacher told him that he could not longer help him and he refered him to another, better teacher. It was with that teacher that he took violin lessons. He was still not exactly fantastic at sax, so he stayed with violin and got serious on that. He later played with the millitary like his dad did. I can not exactly remember when, but at some point he became the band director and his old instructor was the new principal of the school. He really started doing sax seriously in a jazz band, which he did not really like. After that was through with, I was playing a piece with Casals I beleive it was, and he told him to play Trés expressif. So he said "ok." and played it expressively...as a clarinet. Casals told him to STOP! STOP! STOP! "I said trés expressif!" (With vibrato) Mule told him no, he couldn't play it like jazz. Casals told him to jkust do it, and that is where it started, with the diaphragm vibrato, jazz vibrato of the time. I am not too sure of the order of this, though I am DAMN sure that he first learned sax, though got serious on violin first. And I know that the vibrato he used was a jazz vibrato, the jazz vibrato of the age anyways. I will have to find my thing, and watch it again to reaffirm everything or edit it...probly will post again in a week or so on this. SS, I didn't know that saying that "music' disgusted me made you look stupid, but if it does, go on feeling stupid...for thinking that saying that makes you stupid. But anyways, mule only ever got 2 albums out, the history of saxophone, and another I can't remember...might be volume II...not sure. Though Bryan Kendall at Legendary saxophonists has compiled somewhere around ten CD's of mule's playing from edison cylinders, vinyls (sp?) and a few long lost recordings from performances. they have a few problems, they are not perfect like a studio recording, but they are still really damn good. The reason mule only ever got out 2 albums was because he hated recording. So this is pretty much your only source of his stuff. I do not even know what raschers albums are, I just buy CD's from bryan. I just received a cd with the original recording of bolero. IT is quite nice. the DVD of mule is also QUITE interesting. I highly recomend that.

Saxman What are your sources? To me it sounds like you're pulling it out your ass. Everything I've ever read on Mule says he played violin first. He was never a jazz player. Plus, your story of how he became a band director is absolutely riddiculous because the French music education system isn't evening close to what you claim. You should spend more time reading, listening, and practicing than on a forum spinning stupid stories that are untrue.

Schubert. Good one. I just borrowed a Wintereisse CD and found a great choral book I'm tinkering with for piano and saxophone. The book is in German, though, so I need to get one of those handy music vocabulary guides. My range when singing is quite limited, but I'm trying to get used to singing before playing. At least to work out rhythms and dynamics ahead of time. It helps you get the meter and phrasing right when you first sight read. This isn't particular to classical playing - just good musicianship.

Right on bro. Nice to know there's someone out there that actually cares about musicianship rather than just the saxophone. I have the same trouble with singing as well, but it does wonders with my ear in picking up nuances and trying to convey those through playing as well. Are there any other choral (or intrumental) works you like to transcribe. I'm always looking for new suggestions.

How about an interview of mule recorded sometime in the 70's or 80's? Band, orchestra, whatever the hell you want to call it, I am pretty sure there were no strings in it. Like I said, I will have to watch that interview again to get the porecise order and dates, which I will post later. I lent it to a friend, and will eb getting it back in 2 hours, I might even make a post tonight, though the interview is about an hour long so it may take until tomorrow.

Ok, here it is: Mule's father played in a millitary band, on saxophone, but was taught to play in the classical clarinet style. Marcel was taught how to play the sax when he was seven and a half years old, he later surpassed his dad and joined his da's brass band of 40 pieces, with twelve saxes. As marcel's dad was a sax player, he favored the sax, and the sax players of the time were better than the trumpitists and other brass musicians. At nine, he learned violin from a teacher in Bernay Normandy, He studied Violin until about the start of WWI when he started to learn the piano. Though his teacher was not very good and he surpassed that teacher too. His teacher referred him to another teacher that was quite impressed with him, and he pushed to get him into the conservatory. He taught him free for one year untill his dad told him that he couldn't go on like that, and that he shouldn't count on going to paris even if he could. His dad was wary of the musician's life as he had seen the conditions that they lived in - poor. His dad wanted him to be a teacher. Marcel then went to Primary superior school for three years and he then went to teacher training college. Then if you did that, then you automatically ahd a job for the demand. He became a teacher at the school he learned to read, and his old teacher was the principal, he his deputy. In 1922, he joined the fifth regiment and became the directors favorite because he was so talented. At this point, he was over twenty and he decided that he would not become a violinist. He was serious on violin first, but had more time on the sax. He would have preferred to stay with the violin at the time, but he could not make up the fifteen years. in 1923, he joined the republican guard where he later started the quartet in 1927. This was his career as a professional musician now. His dad would still have preferred that he stayed a teacher, but the guard was much better, the pay was definate and constant and you could also do side jobs. His side job was playing in jazz bands. In jazz circles, mule was reknown for his style. Eduord l'enfant knew him from these jazz bands. He later played a ballet with eduord at the opera commique. In the ballet, there was all sorts of music, all different styles. Mule had a short blues solo in the ballet, a more serious blues solo and eduord wrote Tres expressif and underlined it. Mule thought, "I can't play this like I do at the jazz bands." So he played it like a expressive classical clarinetist would. After only a few bars, eduord said, "no, no, no!" I said tres expressif! Mule told him he couldn't play it like he did at the jazz band. Eduord told him to play it the way he heard him with the bands - avec vibrato. mule humored him and people really liked it. Mule from then on began to use the vibrato in classical pieces, at first "timidly" but then more and more and more. He played bolero in either 1928 or 29 (He couldn't remember exactly the date.) with vibrato. Bolero was written for three saxes, the Bb Tenor, the Bb sop, and a sopranino in F. Though no such sax exists. (Or at least that was ever produced.) Ravel was not very communicative and this is why he wrote it in F. He had seen an alto in F earlier, and assumed an instrument and octave higher would also be in F. Ravel as wrote it as such, that the low notes could never be hit on a sopranino, so Mule ALWAYS played the sopranino part on soprano. These last two really aren't relevant, but I wrote them down in my notes, so I might as well. Marcel replaced a trumpet player at the prades music festival led by casals. One rehearsal, casals started it much faster than they normally played it, but he couldn't play it. The notes were high, and he could not play them at speed. Back then, only three or four trumpitists could play like that, but they were not free. now they use a picolo trumpet. But anyways, a cellist suggest to casals that he let mule play it. Casals said, "no that isn't possible." The cellist, said yes it is, I heard him do it before - much faster than this, so he played the trumpet solo. And finally, he first played concertino da camera in 1937 in france - rascher played only else where. After seeing the harmonic lines, he told Ibert that he owuld not play it that way, it ruins the sound. Ibert told him that rascher gave him an altissimo demonstration and he was impressed, so he threw it in there. and that he had another version without the harmonics and that he preferred that one anyways. Marcel mule is the one repsonsible for all of the optional stuff, it was all mandatory before 1937. He later played the piece again with the Boston symphony orchestra in 1958. Well thats about it, I am not even going to proof read, which I normally do on a long post - this one is TOO damn long. But anyways, thats how it happened, straight from the horse's mouth. The interview was recorded at mules home in sanary with his friend Gilles Martin in 1984. The last part at the end which is only a few minutes was recorded - later. 92 I want to say it was, though I cant find that information - I might be confused with rascher's recital. Anyways, I had soem of the orders and names mixed up, but the same basic thign was there: Mule started on sax, then learned violin, then piano. And DID play in a jazz band, and used his JAZZ vibrato in classical works.

Bibimbop - I've responded via email to your profile address.

My god bibim, are you actually speachless?

No, I've simply been busy with school. Between summer classes and practicing I haven't made it to a computer. Maybe that's something you should try...being in a school of music. Oh wait... you're not in one

just can not stand to be wrong can you? maybe that explains your passion concerning the revealing of the truth about the S-80...

A real musician can make any mouthpiece sound good.

So both of you obviously are not real musicians.

hahaha This is a forum. Can you hear what I sound like? Not unless you went to my last recital, went to my concerto performance, or attended the NASA conference. Get a grip. Again...what music school do you go to?

Wow, hey guys, chill. No need to get all hissy. Mrrow! I've never heard much decent classical sax. Personally, I find many pieces have way too much vibrato- is sounds like they're epiliptic. There was one musician I heard with a rich dark sound, though... very nice... I can't stand excessive vibrato. I should probably listen to more classical sax. Any reccomendations? Christie J

If you're not a fan of lots of vibrato you should listen to Claude Delangle, current professor at the Paris Conservatory. My recommendation for a good album to start with is: "A Saxophone for a Lady". He's playing great standard repertoire, and his minimal use of vibrato gives and interesting effect.

Hey, SaxMan - ou talkin' to me, B*TCH?!?!? As I recollect, you're the one that will blow $500 on a mouthpiece but can't seem to find the cash to put together a basic recording rig on your computer. Until you're ready to send a .wav my way, keep your horn where your mouth is - considering you're not willing to put your money there.

Bibm, it doesn't matter, as a good musician can make any piece sound good, and you HAVE to have your S-80 or whatever substandard piece it is, you obviously are not a real musician. maniac, Recording equipment goes far beyond 500. I would need at least 700 for a bare bones minimum setup, or I could get somethig good and spend 2 grand on a single mic with no recording equipment.

SaxMan - Obviously, you own a computer... SB Audigy Platinum - $200. Audio Technica hand mic - $50. Cakewalk software - $100-$300. Proving you're not just full of hot air??? Priceless. I know, I know - you've got nothing to prove because all that matters is what you think of your BAD self. Quite frankly - you come across as a poser on this website. What little truth dribbles out of your comments gets washed out in the bilge surrounding it. If you think you have to spend $2000 on a microphone to do decent home recording, you have no concept of what that $2000 is buying. That's like saying you refuse to learn how to drive until you can afford a Ferrari. Or that you refuse to go to the movies unless you are able to view them in George Lucas' home theater. I don't think anyone's buying your cop-out that home recording equipment is too expensive.

MRROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So according to Saxman if you play a S80 you are not a real musican...hhhhmmmm So Jean-Marie Londeix, John Sampen, Jean Yves Fourmeau, and many others are not real musicians... Give me a break BTW I play Vandorens. I like them, especially the Vandoren Optimum Mouthpieces for alto. I have nothing against S80s, I just choose something else, and I respect those players because they have given greatly to our repertoire and pedegogy (no matter what their mouthpiece) You still haven't answered my question...what music school do you go to... Or are you to good for formal music training, becuase you think you know SSSOOO much. You're probably a punk kid that got first chair at a county honors band in the middle of no where Alaska and now think he's the greatest thing ever. Why don't you try to get into a real school, and then you'll see how ignorant and naive you are.

Hey, I tell you what, guys. If the other is so lame and retarded, don't reply. Boppy dude, if you're so great and in so superior by going to school (wooo!), then you'd walk away from the debate and go practice with that lovely expensive mouthpiece. I've got a cheapo Brillhart Ebolin, and though it's a jazz mpc, I find it's better than a C* for symphonic music, as a C* gives me way too nasal a sound. Since we're on the topic of classicalness, maybe one of you bad boys could give me some assistance with my musical issue- I play on a Selmer III Silver alto sax- I use Vandoren, I hiss like a rainbow guy from California. I don't know what to use. La Voz sounds pretty good, but I get a jazzy sound. I'm a bit stuck. Jazz is my primary focus, so it's not too bad, but I need a broad range. Personally, I hate Vandoren anyways- the reeds aren't the great quality they make them out to be, and it's like playing on plywood. Anyways, let's chill with the arguing, eh? Personally, Bibmibop, I think you're coming off as a prick. However, it's not my arguement, so I shouldn't really say anything. Oh! What school do you go to? Just curious. And no, he said that if you have to go blow a chunk of money to sound good, then you're not a real musician. Real musicians make what they've got work. Being tight on money a bit, I agree. I used a Bundy II for the longest time- (here's an interesting story) it got shut in a door by it's previous owner, and rebuilt from the G key up. It sounds great. I still have it now despite my Selmer, and though it's keywork is way sloppier than my beloved Serie III, it's got a nice fat fat fat sound. And in my personal opinion, you sound like a 20-something year old that's a high on his big badness at being an "adult" and in college. But like I said, it's not my arguement. --------- Recording setups? Hmm. I thought as long as you had quicktime on your computer (I'm a Mac user, I don't know about PC's, but on our comps it's standard) you can record. Some don't have a built in mic, so you might have to go to Office Depot and spend about 20-30 bucks on one, but you can record yourself on the computer. It won't sound great, and you'll lose a lot of your tone quality, but you can still hear the technique, licks, notes, screw ups, etc. So, if you guys want to duke it out...... Hey! That'd actually be pretty neat- an online sax duel. Cyber meets club. Just a thought. Christie J

SPP - (By the way, nice to have new blood on the board) If you continue to hang out here, you'll see the occasional playground battle. In some ways, it's totally stupid, and in some ways, it's part of the fun of internet discussion boards. Occasionally a morsel of good info is contained amongst the tripe. And some people REALLY like tripe! For whatever reason, saxophonists (in general) tend to be very emotional when it comes to criticisms or equipment opinions. Personally, I played my ass off on a Bundy II all the way through high school with the original student mouthpiece, and I was pretty damn good. With regards to your "lithp", I'm wondering what Vandoren you're using. Is the mouthpiece new to you? Is this a new phenomenon? Is it hissing from the mouthpiece or from the horn? High A, for example, can be hissy. Could be you need to use a slightly softer reed or a different cut of reed. I play a silver III for alto, myself. My vintage Larry Teal mpc never gives me any trouble, but I fought and fought with an S80 C*, resorting to opening the facing a ton and working in a slight baffle to get it to work for me. I never tried a Vandoren classical mpc, but I've got a Jumbo Java A55 when I need to strip paint. I have recently acquired several Selmer metal pieces - a modern C* Paris Jazz, a vintage C* classical, and a "very vintage" D classical. My classical tone preference is to the brighter side of the scale. I don't try to hide with the violas. I like to use deep but not fast vibrato when the music calls for it. This was the problem with the S80 C*. I had hissy tones, my high G and G# wanted to drop to the lower octave, I couldn't achieve the vibrato I wanted, everything above middle F ran progressively sharper and sharper - I couldn't balance the intonation on the horn for shit. I started to think I was stuck with a "dog" horn. I had an easier time with my Bundy II. I've got a small jaw, and have had troubles on otherwise "tried and true" set-ups. With the Selmer Paris metals, however, my intonation has been +/- 5-10 cents throughout the whole horn - enough that I can listen to what's going on around me and only have to make minor adjustments, if necessary. The response is great, too. The horn now plays as quickly as I can articulate. I'm actually using the C* Jazz model for classical playing, using a bell mute when appropriate. It's definitely brighter when playing loudly, but I don't have to play nearly as forcefully to play ff - more controlled. At the softer dynamics, the edge subsides nicely without becoming stuffy or airy. As far as sax dueling, I think it's great if folks can share .wav's with each other for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback. I sent one out to a few folks a while back and got some really good feedback. Not that I'm "old", but as I've matured, I've grown to understand that musicianship can't possibly be about being the best. It can only be about becoming better. There's always someone out there just waiting to cut your head clean off. The trick is to be able to learn from them as your noggin' is rolling across the floor.

Whew! You guys are a rowdy bunch. Actually a good thing indicates passion. The question is so simple: who is your favorite classical saxophone player?. Had you all been in the same room fistfights would have broken out :). Personally I like a lot of different players for a lot of different reasons. Its like visual art. Painters don't just use a palette of 10 colors and thats it. The world is full of some great players each unique in his or her own way, each with something to contribute. As for vibrato. Well, tastes change with time nothing remains static it can't we artists are too demanding of ourselves and others to allow that. On a final note I do have to add (and this is a compliment) saxman you are a character. Keep up the good fight and keep practicing who knows you may be the next Marcel Mule

I recently got a Deutch Grammophone vinyl recording of Rousseau playing a number of concertos including Ibert and Glazounov. Now I haven't heard every classical recording artist ever, but aside from a little intonation issue with the low D hold during the Glaz intro, Rousseau takes the cake in my opinion. Rich tone without being stuffy. Nice altissimo without being showy. Sounds like an extension of the normal range of the horn instead of a parlor trick like some artist recordings I've heard. His articulations are much cleaner than most. Get this recording!

Yeah.. I like that recording too. Listened to it in high school a lot. You sure are right about the low D. Too bad about poor low D. Always wondered why he didnt fix that. Could have been an issue of time or money or both. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this dude but he's kind of new and unconventional: John Harle. An english chap who has recorded with St. Martin in the Field with Neville Marriner conducting. He's done the Glaz, Ibert and some more contemporary stuff.