Don't give away the secret. How else am I going to get a deal on a good playing late model Mark VI and unload a dog 5 digit for big money. All that matters is how the horn plays. Mark VI's are great but inconsistent. That is true of virtually ALL vintage horns. Get the horn adjusted by someone who knows what they are doing. If it is in tune and has a good sound it is a winner. Otherwise dump it for big money to someone impressed by the name and serial number. The fact that it as been recently adjusted just makes the sale easier.

, here we go again. Miscontruing what I have said, or any other RESPECTABLE vintage sax enthusiast. Lets see if you can understand this comparable principal: Computers, anout forty years ago, ran MUCH differently that computers run today. There were some computers back then that ran good, and some bad. There are computers made today that run good today, and a LOT than run bad - compaqs, macs, HP's, gateways sonys and so on. Computers were made differently back then, not ever will you find a desktop computer today that runs like the the ones close to forty years ago did. contrapositively, you will never find a computer from back then that runs the same that a comuter was then. See computers were made differently then, that is why, you will never find any two combinations of computers, one from the old days and one form today. (-manners on 9/2/2004 7:11:30 PM.)

okay, what exactly did I misconstrue? My response was both to yours and maniac's post. It both supported your assertion of the value of the Mk 6 name and agreed with maniac's example of the older 6's greater value than later serial #'s based on nothing but that # ???? Keep in mind, I'm guessing Peter's post was a response to mine, not yours.

sorry about that johnson, I must have been a little cross eyed. I thought you had said somethign along the lines of...that because a mark VI is a certain number means that it plays good...was totally off - I thought we were going the direction of SOTW again!!

thinking about that more, the number thing is not necessarily true. If you have a really good playing VI in marginal condition, it could go for the price of an average VI in mint condition.

I don't think that is a really good analogy. The reason ALL Mark VI's cost a lot of money is that the best Mark VI's are great saxes by any standard and the worst are at least ok horns. No one would try to perform any computer related activity on a 40 year old computer, they are obsolete. A good vintage horn properly set up compares favorably and in many cases surpasses a modern horn. A vintage sax isn't some historic relic you can only use to play classic swing. You do compare a vintage horn to a modern horn when you are deciding what to buy or play. Another consideration is the instrument as an investment. Mark VI's appreciate in value. Whether that is right or fair isn't the issue it is simply a statment of fact.

without a doubt true about the computer thing our computers today have to have a bigger ram and other components that are way different than 40 years ago!!!! thats like saying a 40 year tv works as good as an hd plasma!!! you cant use computers as an analogy for a sax!!!!1

apples and oranges

yeah , good way to put it. (-manners on 9/2/2004 7:12:31 PM.)

oh wait... I meant to quote your post about computers. sorry about that guys.

geez man im glad i walked in i had to watch the wrath of saxman take over this forum usually i atleast listen to your advice saxman or see your topics but what?! computers, that post should be burned man, nice with apples and oranges though chiamac thats what im thinking Im here to set it straight all mark vi's in there time were awesome, some more than others as you should know if your getting a mark vi all of them are hand made, and over a long period of time. now what does that mean, there inconsistant, they could have been mistreated, and as you should also know people die. the people that originally made the first mark vi's aren't the same, engravings are different, finishs quality and parts, every one of them is different. People assume things based on the age and serial number every horn you buy especially of this caliber should be play tested, ALOT.... ALOT ALOT. play with everyreed every mouthpiece different embochure everything man some are better due to serial number because the staff was awesome at the time, some are newbies and they need time to settle in. the finishes change and what people do to them changes ask questions find everything out about it. newer ones may get the rag because of a laquer change or more newbie staffs, but that doesn't make them bad. another thing I want to set straight is dont rag on overhauls guys I mean ok ok a needless overhaul is the devil, and trust me there are a lot of butcher shops out theyre ALOT, selmer especially, but you can make your horn sound terrible if you dont take care of a rusty old sax with beat down pads. Mark vi's are a privilege to own, maybe not to all you altos... but we baris pay big for these saxes and I speak for myself when I say I know how long it takes me to find my horn I personally do not own my own mark vi bari nor should I, although I will get it from my teacher when im ready but you less expensive horn players just throw them around have respect its a privelege take respect in your horns guys or else you can go to SOTW haha i had to throw that in

"people die" I LOVE IT=) it's like cars... monday and friday cars are going to be worse than middle of the week cars. I don't know if it's a proven fact, but I can see some truth to it. and actually (not to diss any highschoolers in here) I don't think any high school kid should have a really super nice pro horn. Unless they are going into college for music... and even then it's iffy. It seems like overkill to me that some highschool kids have horns worth more than their friends cars.

see chiamac nos what im saying anyway to bari players is it just mark vi's that have the smaller horn size and gives it a much tighter fit than the larger baris around today or do you see that in all or most, it is even consist throughout years has anyone noticed different sizes and fit to the hands throughout mark vi's

Not to be devil's advocate (wait- yes I am) that's not for you to decide. If you have the money, get the best brand you can buy. That's the American way. Sorry, but it is. If you're going to stay with music, cool. If not, sell your horn to me. I'll pay at least half of what it's worth to take it off your hands.

Chia, mule NEVER went to a college, yet he STARTED on a pro horn, and just kept getting better and better and better ones. There are also many people that play in millitary bands that have never went to college. What does college have to do with your horn anyways? you go to school for a piece of paper saying you payed about 10 grand for a piece of paper that tells you are an expert. To quote a book I once read, though I can't remember which, "never trust anything that speaks when you CAN'T see where its brain is." I am not going to a college cause I am not stupid, I am not going to my life away doing algebra and reading about ancient history when I can finish 1.5 years early and be 1.5 years closer to retirement. And chia, my horn is worth about the same as most of my friend's cars, and less than the rest. (one by about 56 grand.) Bari machine No thats NOT the american way. Most are too cheap to pay a GOOD price for a sax, and complain about it. Its not about having the money, its about future expenses and having the best. I am not going to spend it on anything else so why not this? 3 grand for an alto is NOT that much, considering that at least 7 or 8 hours was spent bulding it, right there is 630-720 dollars in labor alone. Then there is materials, the argon, the mandrels, the silver solder, the finish, the berrings, the pads, the brass, the springs, etc etc. And what is this about the best brand? what does brand have to do with the model? Polaris is a pretty reknowned brand, but there are about 7 or 8 models they make that are just absolutely abysmal. Suburu is pretty reknowned too, but every single thing they make is junk....just like acura, honda, toyota, mazda, saturn...you obviously are too simple minded to understand the computer thing, which surprises even me when I make A POINT to try not and get surprised, I will try not to type too much more, or I might confuse you you see? And btw selmer's master engraver didn't die until about 1965, though I really do not see what in gods name that has to do with the sax. Or what any personel has to do with the sax, it is the design, not the builder that counts. THe builder only effects the function, not the design - the builders didn't make late mark VI's play like yanagisawas, the designers did.

if it wasn't for college I wouldn't have the views and ideas I do now. I feel sorry that you don't want to further your educationa and mind by not giving college a chance. It's not about money, it's not about getting a better job. It's about learning ideas and things that you normally wouldn't in normal everyday life. SHooT if it wasn't for college I would still have the views my parents gave me... now that's scary. but what do you know... you're still early in high school. Get past those 16-19 year old years, then we will talk about acting like a adult.=) I actually feel sorry for you... I payed about $2000 for both of my horns, and I'll put them up agenst any selmer you can find. They are that good. no wait, I feel buzzed. So I'm going to go to bed soon. =)

geez i have to post again saxman i figured u almost had it right there and for part of the time you are right very right but then u had to talk about cars subaru DOES make good model cars and all the names that you named where japanese made cars ... hmm i wonder.... anyway 3000 dollars for a sax is not expensive at all, but thats cuz im a bari player, so yeah... thats a personal thing and with a hand made sax and a long running group you tend to see changes on models besides a MASTER engraver does not engrave ever horn i find it hard to believe that a few people from his staff retire each year or as i said before die. and as for models let me provide a crazy analogy of my own a little on the reverse side but a crazy analogy none the less the M16 and M4 carbine rifles have been with the united states military in the longest running contract and while always being an M16 new changes have been added to the model when first released in for the vietnamese war the action was terrible and jammed very often and so they changed it as it was still a M16 but a much better one, selmer could have and DID change the way the place and the ideas they put into making the mark vi while still making that horn, as i over do all the time but bari, has the low A and the way they did that changed very much especially during the mark vii era where some would call it a whole different sax as for college you talk about algebra science and history, i meant if your going to study music like berklee... but ok and yes college does completely change your views Also the american way can not be stated by you or I as the principle of america is not founded on a way and a series of comprimises getting the best is not always a good option when general washington was fighting the french i forget which fort and its gonna drive me crazy but his troops where not skilled (as begining sax players are) so they were not given superior fire and had much less in numbers some how they won and became harden soldiers through this trecherous practice( practice to make them better sax players) and even though the unit may have seemed small the powerful "pros" were given the best rifles possible now this is just my opinion and i feel i have a right to post it too but when it came to mark vi's i just had respect for the legacy and try not to incourage the sax to be in the hands of an unskilled professional who could damage an endangered horn... besides it could even be yours some day and i wouldn't want some kid not respecting and potentially ruining a beautiful horn that i could have had

As long as the Mark VI discussion has dissolved into a discussion on the meaning of life... If you don't go to college, you will not learn how to learn. Those of you who have gone to college know what I'm talking about. If someone wants to play the odds that they are such hot stuff that they don't have to go to college, then that's their prerogative. Chances are they will pull a bigger paycheck than their stupid, aspiring college-going counterparts for about 6 years. And then they will be interviewed by their stupid, aspiring, diploma holding dweeb counterparts in the 10th year. Why does everyone get so darned emotional about Mark VI horns? If half the sax-bozos out there spent as much time practicing that they spend looking and talking about "the ultimate set-up", they'd end up happy with what they've got. Don't get me wrong, if your passion and pocketbook afford you a sweet mega buck horn, go for it. Just buy it and play the darned thing already. Is it worth getting excited about your new shiny pro horn or your vintage "find"? Sure. Cool. Now go do something with it. As far as beginners, isn't it great to see a good player become a great player when a decent horn is put in their hands? Sometimes all it takes is a quick pad leak fix and they're inspired for the next 3 months. If my Dad had a killer Mark VI in the basement but kept it a secret (saving it for me for later), I'd be thanking him today for doing me and the horn a favor. And then I'd kill him ;)

you know... I would like to see a modern sax player (or any instrument for that matter) make it in the real world with out going to college. Rock bands and knowing people don't count. I would love to see that, since IMO college would be essental for someone going into music. Not only would you learn more about music and theory, but you would be around others who have that same intrest and drive. The second part being the most important. it's hard to make it somewhere when you're a young college grad punk who knows nothing about the real world. But it would be even harder if someone was like that and just out of highschool. Then they would have to overcome all those college people out there who already have a leg up on them. heh its funny actually. (-Edited for readability by Saxquest administration on 9/2/2004 7:33:22 PM)

no they don't...my mom used to be a proponent of Subarus, has owned 3 of them, excellent care was taken of them, NOT ONE made it past 165 thousand before it had major problems, one crapped out at a hundred and 5. She now has a lumina, a 95, 108 thousand and counting. My dad used to have a 78 ford - sold it at 295 thousand miles, for a truck with more power to pull the heavier loads which involved a new boat. It still ran fine and had plenty power, just ran 15-50 in it instead of 10-40. We have a friend that owns a dodge with a Cummins, 480 thousand miles and counting. It is on its second suspension, which is quite understandable, the roads here stink. The truck is just started to show signs of age about 45 thousand miles ago, though that could be easily fixed with a thorough tune up. (It has only had 1...the free one provided from the manufacturer - over 300 thousand miles ago.) I know a kid at school that bought and old 1984 bmw with 115k miles for 15 grand. he has now put another 30k on it and it runs fine - better than most NEW cars do. I have a friend with a 89 Honda civic, 198 thousand miles, on its third alternator, third suspension, second transmission, second right rear body quarter (which rusted out faster than the rest did for some reason.) I have yet another friend that bought a Saturn new 2 years ago, it now has nearly 30k miles on it, and the whole damn car squeaks. The suspension, the doors, the torque converter whines, the power steering even though it is OVER full. And Saturn is a product of general motors smart one, and I think Acura is too. my ride has 116k on it, and it is as good as a brand new truck with the same configuration, or a 2002 Silverado 2500 with a 4 speed auto and 6.5 liter diesel anyways - the pump was just made wrong by standidyne and goes out every once in a while. (I am on the third now.) the 46 caddy I just sold a few months ago had 85 k miles on it, it drove BETTER than a new Deville. And btw, I mention that 3 grand for an alto is not expensive, read my post, I did NOT say for a sax, for an alto. I agree with the thing on the m16, a quite good gun, the load is good, the ballistics good, but so is the 1917 colt, so what is your point? The 1917 has a few years on the m16. The m16 WAS made better, the mark VI was ruined. Why do you think a early model VI gets more than a late model VI? Because people would rather have the dark, big phat sound that a yanagisawa sound. I’m not dumb, I am not going to pursue music as a career, not only is it VERY expensive to start, the pay is non definite, the pay is low, and the pay can be few and far between. Not to mention that the sustaining musicians’ life is almost always heck - professors are a different story. Hundred dollar bills are not printed in the same quantities as the one dollar bills. So are the high powered guns and the low powered guns. Have you ever read the art of war? Ignore the examples and stratagem and get the principals, the Americans had some sort of an advantage over the French. Though that doesn’t really matter now as it happened over 225 years ago. Chia ,so if you hadn't gone to college, you would be so... n/m. Believe me, I DON'T hold my parents views. My dad is a liberal. He believes everything the media says, I particularly like his arguments about sadaams weapons of mass destruction, that they do not exist, now it turns out he shipped them out before the US came in. My mom tags along with whatever is in the house. Chia, I dare you to play your alto on the glazanov concerto, and sound even as half as good as someone with a modern horn, even someone with a S-80 . And I just can not hold it back any longer. The 10mis not so good that felt good. They are good horns no doubt, but they are pennies compared to the new wonder series II and the 6m, and they cost more too. I would actually put a cigar cutter up against your 10m, depending on taste; I would say that the cigar cutter would win with its extra depth, darkness, and clarity. maniac, no you are wrong there, I would go to my technical schools, become an artisan, a real one none of this ASU crap, and get a bigger paycheck for not 6, but more like 5 and a half, then I would self employ with my own sax shop, specializing in mouthpieces, baris and altos, with very few of Adolph sax's greatest mistake. (The tenor.) After about 5.5 years of working for someone else, I will have saved up about 75 grand, enough to start a shop on, and about 3 or 4 years after that, I will have a full blown sax shop with the works. I will set my own hours, and eventually will have earned enough on mutual funds to buy enough stock from Intel to partially live off the dividends. you have to think smart, instrumental bands are starting to reappear try to join one or start one if you just don't have what it takes, be the one who supplies those bands and get recognition from that, and have all these little kids start wanting to play so you can sell them stuff. last year at the shop, over 15 thousand 6th graders started playing an instrument in the district, this year only a margin of a few thousand have quite, quite lower that the previous year of nearly 10k. Student models aren’t about NOT ruining a pro horn, it is about having a functioning horn to learn on that won’t be a huge hemorrhage of money if the student quits and a horn durable enough to handle a new student’s careless attitude. (-Edited for readability by Saxquest administration on 9/2/2004 7:39:07 PM)

That quote about the trusting.....see its brain is from harry potter and the chamber of secrets. My philosophy is that when you get to a place where you feel like you can reward yourself by stepping up to a pro horn, you should just play test as many as possible, buy the one you like, and go home and practice.

so my 10M is .....? news to me... but I'll remeber that when someone complements me on my horn and the way it sounds. I'll just tell them "yeah, just imange what i could do on a vintage selmer" hahahahaha you're funny, keep it up! (saxman)

oh I forgot.... and this is why my 10M would and will beat any horn out there. I only payed $800 for it, while other horns are 5x more expensive. So right there I have a big advantage over people. Even if they sound a little better than me (and it would just be a little better) I could say... well yeah but I payed $3500 less than you. =) I win!

children should cover there ears... i wish but ill be polite sortof saxman thank you for not reading what we say inwhich i never mention student models but students themselves. thank you for making yourself look like a ......by talking about cars for so long when clearly nobody is on your side in the first place, after that you only state that your going to be a musician in an extremly hard market without college or pro training there. then you further yourself in making yourself look like a ...... by proving that your a far right conservative and you hate..... people and there cars my family over many generations owned fords and they were the worst cars we had my dad races rally sport in his spare time and guess what he uses a subaru WRX as do many of the best rally sport drivers but thats besides the point im tired of you constantly posting this stuff and wasting saxes and my time have fun being a far right conservative with no college in a professionally trained liberal art itll be a kick in the .......... for ya :) (-Edited for readability by Saxquest administration on 9/2/2004 7:42:42 PM)

well im going to perform on the carnival glory over spring break and im in high school and i will be 18 by then and i need need need a good alto i have a good soprano sax though the selmer la voix series but thats only ok i should have sampled others before getting this one..... after i bought it i came across this brand i ahve never heard and i wish i had heard of it because i saw this vintage looking soprano by p mauriat and it had dark lacquer and very nice engravings but yea just a reminder dont rush into buying a sax just test test test and TEST the horn until you are satisfied and then test again after that lol

ps that comment was a reply to someone on this thread saying that its a grey area subject for high school kids to have pro horns!!!!

chiamatic