Thank you so much for that information Maniac. You're right about the facing lengths....I had them reversed. Also, my two biggest problems are, "voicing a quiet low D" (with one group) And getting enough volume above palm E (with the other group)... You are the first person to suggest a possible cure for both, and I might already own the parts..... Gotta go try them out with that in mind...... Thanks again. Ross

Hmmmmm.......Well I tried both and focussed on my weakeast points, but was unable to hear a "real" difference.... However I've been interchanging reeds between the two pieces......I'm going to try filing some for just the 55, ( softer for quiet lows ) and some others for the 75 in the rock situation. It'll take awhile, but I'll let you know..... How bout ligatures.... .I went to Rovners for the gentle grip, but sometimes have trouble getting a good seal......... What do you think of the Francois Louis Ligature.. The single screw, pushing straight up, should give a very poitive grip.... Any thoughts.....? Ross

To me, reed variation more affects tone and response than which lig is holding it down - for the most part. I like Rovners because of their ease of use, but you have to be careful not to get too close to the vamp or overlap the vamp or you can kill the response. (sometimes that's a desired effect, but not normally). I use them on SATB and haven't found anything else to make a whole hill of beans difference. I'm not good enough for it to matter, I suppose. I do really like the Otto Link STM or Strathone Ajustotone type lig with the single vertical screw - so long as it is threaded finely enough to get a decent grip. I have an old Selmer lig that has a similar design. I do like the response from those types of ligs. The Rovner Eddie Daniels and Bonade ligs (with the little rails) hold the reed similarly. I've not tried Vandoren's Optimum lig, but it appears to have a similar type of directional force on the reed. If you're not getting a good seal, it is possible that the table of your mouthpiece isn't truly flat, which I've noticed with modern machined hard rubber mouthpieces. I think it's not so much a matter of design, but more a matter of contraction after machining that causes this phenomenon. I reface mouthpieces, so I'm not bashful about flattening the table if it needs it, but you can really screw up a mouthpiece easily if you make the wrong move or don't do it evenly. So I do like the single vertical screw ligs, though I use standard Rovners as well.. I don't know if shelling out the bucks for a Francois is worth it over paying a mere $15 for a Bonade inverted lig. If you go after the single screw lig, again - make sure it's finely threaded enough that you can secure the reed properly. If it's too coarsely threaded, you'll be muscling the screww too much based on my experience with several diferent kinds. I had one on a Wolf Tayne piece that was very coarse and very difficult to use.

Hi Maniac You're forcing me to think...... I too had noticed the table depression on the JJs.... For that reason, mount ligs. as close to the beak as possible, assuming better seal...... The Rovners are too big to fit at that point, so I use a heavy piece of leather between lig. and reed to take up the slack...... However that has the lig. and leather pad covering the first eighth inch of vamp...... I'd never considered a dampening effect..... I'll look for those other lig. makes you mentioned... It's the vertical push that seems most useful, rather than the tubes and wires.... I'll also try mounting the Rovner further up the table and see if I can hear a difference... I've since worked up some reeds for both the 55 and 75, and keep them separated.......Logic says there must be some improvement........ Even if it's just a placebo, I'll be playing with a bit more confidence.....: I also use Java reeds for both styles of playing.... Any thoughts on that? What is the SATB you refer to.....?

Thanks for the tip on adding leather! That would really help for more slender pieces or when you place it higher on the mouthpiece. I use Java 3 1/2 on soprano for legit. It took me a long time to find one that gave me an ultra rich tone that wasn't dead. Call me a hack if you want, but I use BARI plastics most of the time unless there's a certain tone concept (for a solo, for example) that requires cane. To me, it's more about the resultant sound than what gear I use to attain it. I've done lots of saxual experimentation and a little dumb luck to end up where I have with my gear. Some mild bell-muting takes the "synthetic edge" off, if necessary. By "SATB", I'm speaking of my soprano, alto, tenor, and bari horns. For the record, I play a C-Melody on occasion, but I'd rather get used to on-the-fly transposition on tenor. I like that Vandoren's mouthpieces are wide enough to accomodate the width of just about all reeds. On some mouthpieces, I notice that the rails "undercut" the reed width which can make for uncomfortable lip pinching and odd response. So also make sure that your reeds aren't too wide for the lay, and if they are, sand down the sides (GRADUALLY!). Only after correcting the width, should someone go after the face of the reed, itself.

Hmmmmmm........ Oh well, It's been a long time coming, but I'm beginning to realize it may be the horn........ The low D remains crappy, even with the dedicated mouthpieces.......so I'm going out to try some new horns....... Decided to rent a modern student horn and get the feel of that....... If it's better, then I'll have some experience with a modern horn to compare the others...... This is a gloomy evening indeed. Ross

It's gloomy because you've found that you can outplay your horn? Sounds like progress!

Hi Maniac You're right of course, but after fifty years, I'm a bit attached.... Actually tried a Yamaha 23......And first observation was improved intonation....It's excellent..... However it seems to be weak up high, and I couldn't get much from altissimo......But a couple of hours is not a fair trial...... I'll know better in a week or so..... ( I took my old horn to jam last night ) Ross

Ugh. Never found a Yamaha I've liked... so nasal... :P (hence my s/n) Anyways, on the Dolnet topic, www.saxpics.com/dolnet/index.htm I think that might help a bit...? Christie J.

I'm not totally crazy about the newest dumping of student Yamahas, but I've acquired an appreciation for some of the older ones. Very true, though. The Yamaha tone is somewhat "Vanilla" compared to Selmer's "French Vanilla" and Keilwerth's "Rocky Road", but I've come to like the clean slate that Yamaha provides for me to develop the sound I want with mouthpiece/reed/embouchre selection.

Physics is everywhere...... It turns out that My Setup, can cause that D warble on either horn........ So armed with Maniac's "don't get the lig too close to the vamp" My observation that farther back makes for a lousy seal....... Rico's web information about "French file cut reeds" being easier in the bottom end. And the observation that a cheap two screw lig. can grip closer to the vamp than a Rovner........ And a pair of rubbery lips from playing too long.......I've made some progress.... Varying amounts of the above, is not only improving my D warble, but feels like the whole range is brightening..... It's like starting all over........But better..... Thanks christie so much for that web site.....I feel less like a nut bar........ It'll take awhile to figure out what the new "normal" will be, but I'll keep you posted. Ross

I've got one more idea for the warbling. Sometimes this is caused by a design flaw or pad leak, but it can also be caused by a mouthpiece that isn't fitting tightly near the opening of the neck. If there's a gap there - even a slight one, it can cause certain notes - usually around low D, low C, and below. So one last trick... wrap the very end of your neck cork with a few rounds of teflon tape and see if the warbling continues. If the warbling goes away, you should have the neck cork replaced with a nice new one that can adapt to the mouthpiece. If a neck cork is used for a long time by a mouthipece with a slightly smaller bore at the neck tip, when you try one that fits looser at the neck tip you can get this phenomenon. The mouthpiece might be fitting tightly at the back end of the mouthpiece, but if the neck tip on the inside isn't tight enough, you can get warbling.

Thanks maniac I'll be back at it later tonight, and start with the teflon... I'm still experimenting with the mouth piece / reed / lig. variables, and although It's still a work in progress, lots of progress has been made.... What's got me curious though, is that the table and first part of the rails are flat.... Logic says that the reed would be stationary there... Compaired to the vibrating tip...... But filing the reed that far back DOES have an affect, as does moving the lig. farther back...... What physics must be involved.....? Ross

Hi All Well, no room for teflon.....Tight all the way....... However, I've moved back to lighter reeds, and finding that a cheap two screw lig mounted further back works better...... Surprisingly, not only has the change improved the warble problem, but it seems to have increased alt. volume.....? Seems counter intuitive..... Ross

I have found that certain kinds of reed cuts can tend to warble at the low end. A traditional "V" shaped heart to the reed seems to be fairly stable whereas a straight profiled heart can sometimes tend to warble. Not always. I think that the "V" heart allows the reed to play at the lower frequencies with more ease. This is a phenomenon at pp and p that goes away as you play into mf and above. It's a matter of overcoming or blowing through the instability. I took a look at a kid's horn the other day that the parents said "he plays so loudly". Turns out his bis key wasn't closing properly from the lower stack, so he was blowing through the pad leak which was quite bad. Between his bis and G# having leaks big enough for a small rodent to pass through, I'm suprised he was able to play it at all. The parents were finally able to remove their ear plugs.

Hi all.... After spending a pivotal weekend with the borrowed Yamaha and a tuner,I've decided it's time for a new horn..... Lots of help from several corners including Maniac, but an old Yamaha 61 or 62, is the new target lover. Can't believe that I'm giving up after all these years, but even the 23 has my old Dulnet beat in many areas, and any loss of tone, will be masked by the screaming guitars...... Ross

Hey, Ross - 61's and 62's are safe bets. Even older 23's can really hold their own, though I'm not terribly crazy about the newer ones. Ed

Hi all... This has been an excellent site for my musical education..... I've since upgraded my crappy tuner to a good analog type....Seiko....It turns out to be much less frustrating in general, and particularly for altissimo and the bottom few notes... At any rate, I was inspired to take a cloer look at the Dulnet, and have since been shimming and adjusting, and rediscovering the tone and volume I'd given up.. Perhaps the old girl will be going out to play tonight..... Ross

There's nothing like breathing life back into a horn that means something to you.

Hi Stu Well it's another other week later, and the shimming continues..... It's far and away better pitched now, thanks to the new meter.... The rental is due back in a couple of days, and for the time being, I'm going to just play the old Dolnet and see what happens. As for buying another, do you live near Southern Ontario....? Ross

Hi all.... The meter said, that the bottom four notes on my tenor, were sharp 15 - 25 cents compared to the stack keys...... I've bumpered the offenders closed to the point of barely playing, and opened the stack keys pretty much to the max, but would like to either flatten the loweres more, or sharpen the uppers..... Any suggestions, or is that all she wrote....? I suppose increasing the height of the lowere tone holes would work, but probably more effort than I'm up for. Ross