Cant say about keilworth horns except i think soldered on rth is not a good idea as the heat can cause warp but the original RTH by conn are superbly done which is as it states Rolled not soldered on Dave

Steve, I am a machinist/engineer by trade. I test different horns and work part time in a repair shop. I was considering purchasing a Keilwerth SX90-R when I read your article. I had played several SX-90's and R's and I was very impressed with the quality and sound. After I first read your article about a year ago, I have tested EVERY one of the SX-90R's I've seen; about 12 of them so far. Now, I didn't just check these with a block, like you used in your review, I used a dial indicator. So far, I've found only ONE Keilwerth with a low C tonehole that was out by more than .003 of an inch! And it was only off by about .005. I'm not sure what the factory's tolerance is, but I would think that anything less than .005 is pretty good. I've talked to several people through this site who own Keilwerth SX-90R's and LOVE them! I have also received several emails from people who were considering an SX-90R before reading your article. I think that your findings are inaccurate. I don't know rather it was your intention to discourage people from buying Keilwerth, or if you received any compensation from Selmer, but that really doesn't matter to me. I believe the article to be false, and I tell the readers who are interested in the SX-90R to play the horn and make their own decision. And Dave, I agree with you. From an engineering standpoint, I don't think that soldering on the tone rings is the best way to go. I haven't seen how they do this, but my assumption is that they are machine soldered to insure that they are aligned properly and that heat is controlled. Brass does dissipate heat fairly well. Brass has a melting point of about 1700 degrees F. (960 C) Solder melts at around 500-600 degrees F (depending on the type of solder) The temperature needed to melt the solder shouldn't effect the brass.

I'm very pleased you found 12 examples that didn't have the tone hole flaw - but that doesn't detract from the fact that there are examples out there that do have significant flaws. I've reported on every single example I've seen thus far, whether flawed or not. I have no control over what examples turn up in my workshop, it's a purely random sample. I too have received many emails from prospective SX90R purchasers, and in each case I've advised them of the possible risks involved...and in each case I've recommended the SX90, which is the exact same horn minus the risks. And yes, it is a good horn overall. Hardly discouraging people, is it? As for my findings being inaccurate - just how are they inaccurate exactly? You say you're an engineer - so you should understand the importance of surface integrity when it comes to seals - how precisely do you feel a photograph showing a very visible warp in a tone hole is in any way inaccurate? I could have measured the warps with my dial gauge - but why complicate things for prospective buyers when it's perfectly easy to demonstrate that even a gap small enough to allow the free passage of a cigarette paper is critical in terms of a pad leak? I doubt many players walk into a music shop with a dial gauge about their person...but a packet of Rizlas is easy enough to find. As mentioned earlier, I have an SX90R in the workshop - would you like me to measure the warp with a dial gauge, perhaps publish the picture? Would that make it any less inaccurate?? If you really insist maybe I could get a couple of people to attend the grand measuring of the tone hole warp and sign an affidavit? If, as you claim, the article is false, then the photographs must be fake also. How did I 'fake' those warps? Do you imagine that I don't examine these horns in the presence of the client? If you were told your horn had warped tone holes, wouldn't you want to see it demonstrated? I've seen some pretty far-out denials relating to this issue, but the claim that the review is fabricated really tops them all, and the suggestion that it's financed by Selmer is one worthy of an X files episode. Your assumptions about the manufacturing process are also incorrect. The rings are soldered on by hand ( says as much on my site...so perhaps you haven't read it as well as you ought - if you had, you might have wondered how they managed to get that dodgy G# tone hole ring on ). Furthermore, the fact that brass dissipates heat well means it's a good conductor of same - and as any real engineer will know, that will lead to issues with expansion and subsequent contraction. It really doesn't take much brain power to realise that this is the very crux of the problem. As to people trying and liking these horns in the shop, that too is covered in the review - the fact that these horns work relies heavily on the ability of new ( and thus flexible ) pads to compensate for any anomalies. This is a state that cannot and will not last, at which point there will be problems. You can carry on denying the proof for as long as you like - but so far you've come up with nothing concrete other than to say you've seen some non-warped tone holes, and to claim that I'm faking photographs on behalf of Selmer. I rest my case. I too would advise prospective purchasers to play the horns and make their own decisions - but I also warn them of the potential risks and implications thereof, and discuss the alternatives. I also show them how to ascertain whether there are any such problems. Steve Howard

I love starting a spirited debate and all, but good lord. And I just have to say, Steve, your part about Selmer agents sneaking into repair shops in the middle of the night and hammer tapping Keilwerth tone holes is the funniest thing I've read in awhile.

I am not doubting that there are a few earlier SX-90R's with tone hole problems. I do not believe that the problem as anywhere near as big of a problem as you are making it out to be. I've tested Keilwerth models made as early as 2000. I have even checked models with straight tone holes and found no significant flaws. Did you track the serial numbers of the horns that you tested? Were they all within a certain range? I don't think the blocks are a very accurate way of checking for warpage. Even if the blocks are ground to a flatness tolerance of less than .001 of an inch, the blocks must be of proper size and thickness to accomodate the size of the tonehole. Otherwise, the toneholes may; depending on the placement of the block, appear to be unlevel and any imperfections; even if only .003 of an inch, can be greatly exaggerated. Did you check any of these tone holes with a dial gauge to measure just how far off they really were? I am looking into the manufacturing process involving the soldering of the tone holes. I find it hard to believe that all of the toneholes are hand-soldered as this requires a lot of time and precision, and the percentage of imperfections would be relatively high. Interesting. I'm anxious to learn more about this. Yes, most metals that conduct heat are also prone to expanding and contracting. But aluminum is used to make cylinder heads. Brass is often used to make exhaust manifolds for marine applications. My theory is that if the heat is controlled and applied evenly, the brass will dissipate the heat before any warpage should occur. In order to change the structure of the metal, the brass, which as I said melts at a temperature of about 1700 degrees F, would need to be heated to at least 1100 degrees. Therefore, if the temperature needed to melt the solder; which is only 600 degrees, is applied evenly, the brass should be be able to dissipate that heat without a problem. BUT, if the soldering is done by hand with a torch, you can bet your ass there is going to be a problem! I really don't think that is the case.

"BUT, if the soldering is done by hand with a torch, you can bet your ass there is going to be a problem! I really don't think that is the case." depends on how they do it really... If I had rolled wire/bezel/whatever you want to call the rolled part - that fit tightly intside/outside the drawn hole it would be pretty easy to solder. however it would move to a pain if the piece needed to be placed by hand and held down for the solder process. from what I've read it seems like rolled holes are a big pain and really not worth the extra effort. Or, in other words, the are just a selling point. but that's just my opinon. and in recap, it would be easy to solder them if in they fit on/around the hole. also, I've soldered rings, bezels, and many things out of brass... that metal isn't really going to expand/warp that much if a person does it right. It's not like welding body panels or sheetmetal where you have to be really watchful.

Comments within.. "I am not doubting that there are a few earlier SX-90R's with tone hole problems. I do not believe that the problem as anywhere near as big of a problem as you are making it out to be." ......A few eh? Almost all the other reviews on my site feature just one example of model and make. It's a representative sample. Where I come across a specific problem I track it as various examples come in - for example, the problem with Yamaha YAS275 bells shifting ( which Yamaha took note of and addressed ). In general though, each review is representative of the entire range given that subsequent examples that come in conform to the review example. In the case of the SX90R, EVERY example ( bar the last ) exhibited a serious problem with the integrity of the tone holes. That kind of repeatability is something you just do not see unless there's an inherent problem in the manufacture. Full stop. "I've tested Keilwerth models made as early as 2000. I have even checked models with straight tone holes and found no significant flaws. Did you track the serial numbers of the horns that you tested? Were they all within a certain range?" ......The review examples run from 2000 to 2004, as listed on the review - as are the serial numbers. The examples cover standard and special models, as also noted on the review. The SX90 models won't exhibit the problem to anywhere near the same degree due to the different manufacturing process - and even if they do the problem is completely rectifiable using the standard techniques. No relevant conclusions can be drawn from the serial numbers. "I don't think the blocks are a very accurate way of checking for warpage. Even if the blocks are ground to a flatness tolerance of less than .001 of an inch, the blocks must be of proper size and thickness to accomodate the size of the tonehole. Otherwise, the toneholes may; depending on the placement of the block, appear to be unlevel and any imperfections; even if only .003 of an inch, can be greatly exaggerated. Did you check any of these tone holes with a dial gauge to measure just how far off they really were?"" ......Don't be absurd - the measuring blocks need only be as accurate as the tool used to correct the anomaly, which in this case would be a tone hole file - and to be brutally honest, given the size of the warps seen you could quite happily use a jam jar lid! A few thou is going to make sod all difference when you're talking about a warp that measures something like 2 mm at its nadir. You don't need a dial gauge to measure that kind of bodge up, a piece of bloomin' cardboard would do! Placement of the standard is simple - it should duplicate the pad, which will be set corresponding to the highest point of the rim ( i.e. all of it, if its level ). It's sufficient to just let it rest on the tone hole. Where there is one anomaly this will give you a sufficiently accurate indication of the depth of the warp. Where there are two anomalies that oppose each other it's hardly worth measuring them, as the implications for pad leakage are so appalling you might as well throw the whole thing over in despair. If you can see the anomaly it's already too large...but then I guess maybe there might be some kudos in knowing just how warped your tones holes are..."Hey dude..how screwed is YOUR low C?" But really, I can measure the tone holes on this copper belled jobby with my dial gauge if you think it's going to make the problem go away... "I am looking into the manufacturing process involving the soldering of the tone holes. I find it hard to believe that all of the toneholes are hand-soldered as this requires a lot of time and precision, and the percentage of imperfections would be relatively high. Interesting. I'm anxious to learn more about this." ......You're not looking very hard then. Why not email Keilwerth and ask them how they do it? While you're there, ask for a copy of their handy video that shows the manufacturing process....which shows exactly how the tone hole rings are fitted. I mention as much on the review page....but then you wrote that off as a fake, didn't you... There's no reason why hand soldering of tone hole rings ( note: you said 'tone holes'...these are drawn as per the modern way, just to clarify ) should be inaccurate either - it's something I've done to repair over-filed tone holes, and as with any soldering job it's all in the prep. Even so, there's no reason why over-thick rings couldn't have been fitted and subsequently ground down with a profiled rotary file. Easy-peasy. Consider too how Conn managed to make a horn with proper rolled tone holes, and with considerable success...a far more involved manufacturing procedure. "Yes, most metals that conduct heat are also prone to expanding and contracting. But aluminum is used to make cylinder heads. Brass is often used to make exhaust manifolds for marine applications. My theory is that if the heat is controlled and applied evenly, the brass will dissipate the heat before any warpage should occur. In order to change the structure of the metal, the brass, which as I said melts at a temperature of about 1700 degrees F, would need to be heated to at least 1100 degrees. Therefore, if the temperature needed to melt the solder; which is only 600 degrees, is applied evenly, the brass should be be able to dissipate that heat without a problem. BUT, if the soldering is done by hand with a torch, you can bet your ass there is going to be a problem! I really don't think that is the case." ......Seems to me that you haven't really done your research. That's the difference - where I encounter such problems I don't just sit there and pontificate about dial gauges and suchlike...I get on the blower and talk to people about it, I send inquisitive emails, I ask tough questions. The process of fitting the tone hole rings has absolutely nothing to do with changing the structure of the brass - you'd know that if you were familiar with the manufacturing process of any horn, and you know that had you read the articles on my site about it. Furthermore, the design and specifications of a horn body are nothing like that of a marine manifold or an ali head - you're talking about a thin, perforated, tapered brass tube...quite likely already under strain ( which is not the same as stress, as you know ) when the tone hole rings are fitted. If that's not bad enough, the body then undergoes further heat processes which are CERTAIN to induce further deformations ( this is also not the same as changing the structure of the metal ). So - we've gone from me being a secret agent in the employ of Selmer in a bid for world domination by inscrutable manipulation of a modestly sized German horn manufacturer, through to a somewhat fetishistic fascination with dial gauges...and ended up with you comparing sax bodies to ali cylinder heads...presumably fully torqued and gas-flowed to boot. But let's have a third-party perspective here. Some time ago I had an email from a guy who'd read the review and the associated article on tone holes. No ordinary guy this - in terms of the people who design and build saxes he's what you might call 'yer man'. Without his express consent I don't feel I'm at liberty to name him ( though I think now I might ask ). In brief, he took a look at what I had to say and said 'Yep'. You can make of that what you will. Steve Howard

"the body then undergoes further heat processes which are CERTAIN to induce further deformations ( this is also not the same as changing the structure of the metal )." annealing? I thought they did that to get rid of stress and make the metal more moveable. wow, my textbooks must be wrong! you sound like a cranky old man that needs a hug.

Annealing is done ( if at all ) before any fittings are attached ( tone hole rings, straps, pillars etc )...otherwise they'd fall off. The clue is in the bit "this is also not the same as changing the structure of the metal", which is the annealing process...be it localised or otherwise. It's not your textbooks that are wrong, just your understanding in general. HTH Steve Howard

Steve, I don't know you, but you sure seem to need a lot of words to make your point. Also, you said something about when you see a problem, you don't use tools and guages to measure the problem, you get on the blower and talk---and from the examples of your posts, you probably talk and talk and talk. I appreciate the value of gaining knowledge from other people, after all, that's what this discussion board is all about. Yet, I do prefer mathematical science over socialogical science in determining the quality of musical instruments. I trust the dial guage to be a more accurate determination than words. I have not seen your article, or the photographs you say were part of that article. I would like to see the pictures, but I have trouble translating two-dimensional pictures of something that's three-dimensionally round. Yet, maybe they would be obvious enough to support your arugment. Can you post a link to the photos? Or the article? Or both?

Now this I can assure you. The annealing is done before the metal is worked into making the horn. There is no way that the horn could be annealed after the body is cut and formed. Annealing the brass would involve heating the metal to the metamorphic stage and then allowing the metal to cool slowly to releave the stress. You can't accurately measure the toneholes with a piece of cardboard or even a block. That's like trying to accurately measure the length of a football field using a shoe! To properly measure the warpage of a tone hole, a professional uses a dial indicator, which I have done. As for the manufacturing process and the fitting of the tone rings, I have sent an email to Keilwerth and I am hoping to get some answers shortly. My opinion is that your findings are not typical of the SX-90R. I have talked to other people who also strongly disagreed with your findings. I really don't know what your intentions are, or what your preference is regarding saxophones, but I really have to wonder. Maybe the whole Selmer thing seems a little far-fetched to some, but that's exactly the kind of "BS" the US Selmer company used to pull with Conn and Buescher, even though both companies had manufactured many horns for Selmer. You've made your arguments and I've made mine. I think it's time to put this thing to rest and let the readers make their own decisions. And Sax Mom, the link to Steve's site is posted above. Jim

Just to clarify what I said about the annealing process. Brass, like I said, melts at about 1700 degrees F. The metamorphic range begins at about 1500 degrees, which is the temperature at which the brass becomes like plastic. Heating the metal to that temperature would most definately cause deformities to the body shape. What they do with the brass is they heat it up and then they roll it into sheets that are the desired thickness. The bodies are then cut and formed using a type of press. The brass is quite mallable even at room temperature and can be worked into shape easily. My tech recently repaired a horn that had been backed over by a truck! The body was crushed and when I first saw the horn, I thought there was no way it could be made playable again. But, it was a Selmer Mark VI that held a lot of sentimental value. Luke is a fantastic repair tech, who enjoys a good challenge. For those people who have been reading about the Keilwerth SX-90R and the tonehole issues: Please, if you ever get the opportunity to play an SX-90R, please do so! If you love the sound of the vintage Conn's, this is as close as you're going to find in a modern horn. They are fantastic! No, I'm not a spokesperson for Keilwerth. I do own a Keilwerth, however, and I have played/tested enough of them to know what great horns they are. Try one! And make your own conclusions. Jim

Finally, posts that are longer than mine:) I'm enjoying the debate. Very interesting. Kristy

Well, no-one seems to be coming back with anything concrete in the way of evidence, so I'll wrap up the last few replies in one go... Rolled Tone Holes by Sax Mom on 3/4/2006 10:23:44 PM "I don't know you, but you sure seem to need a lot of words to make your point. Also, you said something about when you see a problem, you don't use tools and guages to measure the problem, you get on the blower and talk---and from the examples of your posts, you probably talk and talk and talk." I appreciate the value of gaining knowledge from other people, after all, that's what this discussion board is all about. Yet, I do prefer mathematical science over socialogical science in determining the quality of musical instruments. I trust the dial guage to be a more accurate determination than words." I have not seen your article, or the photographs you say were part of that article. I would like to see the pictures, but I have trouble translating two-dimensional pictures of something that's three-dimensionally round. Yet, maybe they would be obvious enough to support your arugment." ......There are a few obvious contradictions in your post....you criticise me for talking to people, and yet you say you appreciate the value of gaining knowledge from other people. The best way to gain knowledge is to talk to people who know their subject...like manufacturers, metallurgists, sax designers... You also claim to have a penchant for a scientific approach, and yet you make your comments on the issue without having seen the article to which this debate refers, the link to which appears near the top of the discussion. Your approach isn't very scientific, is it. Sorry to hear about your unfortunate and rare spatial disability. Knock a dent in the rim of a cardboard tube and stare at it for a couple of days...might help. Rolled Tone Holes by connsaxman_jim on 3/4/2006 10:52:46 PM "Now this I can assure you. The annealing is done before the metal is worked into making the horn. There is no way that the horn could be annealed after the body is cut and formed. Annealing the brass would involve heating the metal to the metamorphic stage and then allowing the metal to cool slowly to releave the stress." .....Er, well, yes....we both know that - but you're the one that raised the issue of annealing ( via the change in the structure of the brass ). As I believe I pointed out, this has nothing to do with the issue in hand, so unless you have a relevant point to make it's a bit of a wasted statement. I should repeat though that it is possible to anneal topically and there are methods of annealing that can be applied to constructed bodies, though it's not usually considered worthwhile. "You can't accurately measure the toneholes with a piece of cardboard or even a block. That's like trying to accurately measure the length of a football field using a shoe! To properly measure the warpage of a tone hole, a professional uses a dial indicator, which I have done." ......And there's that insistence again that you need a dial gauge to assess a fault that's clearly visible. Why, for heaven's sake? How do you tell when a pad is leaking? Do you apply your dial gauge first to the tone hole, then to the pad? You'd have to be making some assumptions about the key cup first... No, you use your eye...and, if necessary, you confirm with either a feeler of some description or a leak light. In other words, once you can see a tone hole discrepancy it's really not worth the bother of measuring it...it's just a problem that needs to be fixed, if it can be. Maybe you should tell Keilwerth about your dial gauge, seems like they could use it...though I doubt they would - manufacturers use a cutting disk to level tone holes, it's as accurate as needs be for the job. In point of fact, you don't even need a flat standard to see the deviations - you just look along the tone hole rim and whoops, there it is. You could, of course, measure it...just for fun. To expand on your football field analogy the deviation seen on some tone hole examples would translate to a deflection of the field's baseline of about 1.5 metres at the mid point. You're telling me you can't see that kind of error? You'd actually need to measure that to know it was there? If you placed a straight edge from corner to corner you would insist it isn't accurate enough to highlight the deviation? I think not. "As for the manufacturing process and the fitting of the tone rings, I have sent an email to Keilwerth and I am hoping to get some answers shortly." ......Excellent. I hope they're more honest with you than they have been with other correspondents. Do remember to ask about the video...though I warn you, the backing sax music is incredibly cheesy. "My opinion is that your findings are not typical of the SX-90R. I have talked to other people who also strongly disagreed with your findings. I really don't know what your intentions are, or what your preference is regarding saxophones, but I really have to wonder. Maybe the whole Selmer thing seems a little far-fetched to some, but that's exactly the kind of "BS" the US Selmer company used to pull with Conn and Buescher, even though both companies had manufactured many horns for Selmer." ......When 9 or so consecutive horns come into the workshop all exhibiting the same flaw, that goes down as typical in my book - like the bell problem on the YAS275, the appalling play in early Earlham actions, the proximity of the Yani 901 bari's crook socket to the case wall...etc. As regards my preference for saxophones, what on earth has that got to do with anything? That rather sounds like you putting your own standards on me...you play a Keilwerth, perhaps you're miffed because someone has said "Hey, wait a mo, there's a problem with these horns." I'm willing to bet I've played and worked on more horns than you've ever seen, and liked a great many of them - and I'm more than confident that the review section of my site comes across to the vast majority of readers as a good source of consumer information, free from the usual thinly disguised sales pitch and brand association. "You've made your arguments and I've made mine. I think it's time to put this thing to rest and let the readers make their own decisions. And Sax Mom, the link to Steve's site is posted above." ......Let's sum up in closing then: One the one hand we have my review, based on observations made of examples brought into my workshop, complete with a mechanical analysis of the entire horn plus accompanying dates, serial numbers and photographs. There is also reference to correspondence with the manufacturer and other parties. There's also an associated article on the mechanical theory of pads and tone holes - and a further article relating to the methods for detecting leaky pads, along with explanatory diagrams that show people how to carry out their own tests - on any horn. On the other hand we have a verbal assurance that someone has seen examples without the tone hole flaw, an insistence that a clearly visible problem cannot possibly exist unless it is measured, and an attempt to discredit the opposing evidence by claiming the author is being paid to fake the information by another manufacturer. If I were about to stump up two grand plus on a horn, I wonder who I'd trust to advise me... Feel free to contact me off-forum if you come up with something more creditable. Steve Howard.

".....Er, well, yes....we both know that - but you're the one that raised the issue of annealing ( via the change in the structure of the brass ). As I believe I pointed out, this has nothing to do with the issue in hand, so unless you have a relevant point to make it's a bit of a wasted statement." Steve, I think you are missing my point here. What I am saying is that the brass should be able to accept the heat needed to melt the solder to attach the tone rings without changing the structure of the brass, and therefore causing warpage, IF the heat and solder are applied properly. This has absolutely nothing to do with annealing. But if you have ever used a grinder to sharpen a tool for example, you know that by grinding too much and heating up the metal, you can anneal or reduce the hardness of the tool! "......And there's that insistence again that you need a dial gauge to assess a fault that's clearly visible. Why, for heaven's sake? How do you tell when a pad is leaking? Do you apply your dial gauge first to the tone hole, then to the pad? You'd have to be making some assumptions about the key cup first..." First of all, the concern isn't the key cups, the concern is for the tone holes. If the pad is leaking, and there is no sign of warpage or wear to the tone hole, then inspecting the key cup would be the next logical step, wouldn't it? You CAN NOT measure the amout of warpage with a block. You can't just look at it and say that it's not level! It may in fact look unlevel, It may BE unlevel, but by how much? They can be unlevel and the HORN STILL PLAYS FINE! That's were geometric dimensioning and tolerancing comes into play. In order for a shaft, for example, to work, it must fall within a certain diameter and straigtness tolerance. It can be oversize or undersize, slightly out of roundness, and still work just fine. My insistance on measuring the tone holes with a dial indicator is that any engineer would want to know how far off the tone holes are. I'm sure Keilwerth has a tolerance for these tone holes, and the horns are probably tested before the posts are soldered on and the keys and pads installed. This is one of the questions that I asked in my email which I am hoping to get a reply to soon. I can test a tone hole with a dial indicator and have it test within .002 of an inch, which is less than a sheet of paper. Depending on how I place a block over the tone hole, I can show that gap to be considerably larger than it is. That's why they make precision tools for measuring such things! "If I were about to stump up two grand plus on a horn, I wonder who I'd trust to advise me..." I would play the horn. How does it play? How does it sound? Would you spend $2,000 on a car without seeing it first? Wouldn't you want to drive it? Look over the tone holes and the pads. If the horn plays well then there probably isn't a problem. Buy from a reputable dealer; a dealer that you can count on for service later. Read your warrenty information, and trust that the manufacturer will honor that warrenty and stand behind their product. I've found that most often they will. Most manufactures want to satisfy their customers, even at a cost to them. I trust Keilwerth. I think they are one of the highest quality horns on the market today. I own a Keilwerth horn, and I am very pleased with the company from what I have seen. I highly recommend them! Try one for yourself and see what you think! Jim

......When 9 or so consecutive horns come into the workshop all exhibiting the same flaw, that goes down as typical in my book - like the bell problem on the YAS275, the appalling play in early Earlham actions, the proximity of the Yani 901 bari's crook socket to the case wall...etc. As regards my preference for saxophones, what on earth has that got to do with anything? That rather sounds like you putting your own standards on me...you play a Keilwerth, perhaps you're miffed because someone has said "Hey, wait a mo, there's a problem with these horns." I'm willing to bet I've played and worked on more horns than you've ever seen, and liked a great many of them - and I'm more than confident that the review section of my site comes across to the vast majority of readers as a good source of consumer information, free from the usual thinly disguised sales pitch and brand association. So tell me Steve, have you ever found any significant problems with any Selmer horns? What about the Mark VII and the intonation problems experienced with them? I couldn't help but notice that NONE of the horns you mentioned here were Selmers. As for my expertise and my experience with horns, I'm sure that some of the readers here will be more than happy to comment on that. All you need to do is read some of my previous posts. I am a collector with an extensive collection of vintage horns. I answer several emails each day from saxquest members. I write reviews, appraisals, repair estimates, and do some repairs. It's a hobby that I do for the love of saxophones.

To be fair Jim, I have no doubts to the sincerity of Steve's assesment of the Keilwerth issue. I believe I've read every review on his site and see no evidence of Selmer Bias, in fact, he has a few things negative to say against Selmer's flagship of altos. He seems to judge every horn against the same standard. This Keilwerth issue is quite controversial. On one had, a lot of people do cite no issues (that they've detected, but let's be honest. If the problem is as bad as Steve states, it wouldn't take precision measurements to spot), on the other hand, that doesn't prove that there aren't indeed samples out there with these issues. Dial guage readings, on the other hand, would indeed be good as numbers make for good documentation. If this Keilwerth issue is real it will be found my numerous people

why don't you just ask Keilwerth what they will disclose? Maybe they have a PR statement ready for this particular argument. I am sure they would want to defend themselves. Oh and Lets try to get responces into 1 screen pan. My display is set at 1280-1024 and I am still paging through these responces. ROTF!!! I like long well thought out points just as much as the rest but you don't have to quote paragraphs when I can just page up and read the original post. Refer to a post and then just start ranting. If I have any questions I will read the other post.

My apologies, I didn't realize that the linked reviews earlier in the thread were Steve's--they were posted by Paul. The photos do show what appear to be leaks between the block placed there and the tone hole. However, I can see the same kind of thing when a key is bent out of alignment. Once the key is adjusted correctly, the "leak" disappears. As I tried (and failed) to say earlier, I like the facts shared by my tech to be backed up by the most accurate measurements possible. There is usually room for some tolerance--I believe that's what the pad is for. I believe Steve had experience with a large number of the SX90R with problems, but we don't know how many didn't have problems, because those didn't need to be brought into the shop. I believe Jim had very few with problems. Maybe the majority of the ones with problems were shipped to the part of the country in which Steve lives and works. Maybe our best advice is to "try before we buy." Some will be good. Some will not. (A warranty is a good idea, too.)

Re: Rolled Tone Holes by Sax Mom on 3/6/2006 10:17:43 PM My apologies, I didn't realize that the linked reviews earlier in the thread were Steve's--they were posted by Paul. "The photos do show what appear to be leaks between the block placed there and the tone hole. However, I can see the same kind of thing when a key is bent out of alignment. Once the key is adjusted correctly, the "leak" disappears." .....A bent key is an entirely different kind of problem, and easily rectifiable. Ditto a bent key cup. "As I tried (and failed) to say earlier, I like the facts shared by my tech to be backed up by the most accurate measurements possible. There is usually room for some tolerance--I believe that's what the pad is for." .....Effectively a pad has a working tolerance of that of the thickness of a cigarette paper. You can push that tolerance by compressing the pad - but that's a short-term solution. This is all explained in the article that accompanies the review. Many manufacturers now use compression techniques to set pads, and they rely on the integrity of the tone holes ( aha! ) and cups to make it work - along with a known working thickness of pad and a set cup angle. Nonetheless, such pads often end up leaking at the front of the cup - which is why it's a good idea to have a new horn properly set up. "I believe Steve had experience with a large number of the SX90R with problems, but we don't know how many didn't have problems, because those didn't need to be brought into the shop. I believe Jim had very few with problems. Maybe the majority of the ones with problems were shipped to the part of the country in which Steve lives and works." .....That assumes the horns all come from this locale. They don't. Even if they did, does that make it OK? How are you gonna know that you're not in one of those areas they ship dodgy horns to? Who makes the decision to send sub-standard horns where? Why send them out in the first place if they're below par? It also assumes that it's been going on for some years. I'm sorry, but it really doesn't take much scientific deduction to see how that theory isn't going to float. If you read the review of the alto you'll note that the last example fared significantly better. This hopefully indicates that they have resolved the problems. I would say that I've seen several 'bad uns', it's only fair that I now see several 'good uns'. When that happens it'll be smiles all round. "Maybe our best advice is to "try before we buy." Some will be good. Some will not. (A warranty is a good idea, too.)" .....Now that's good advice at last. I'd add to that by saying read the review, read the associated articles, learn how to assess these things for yourself in 'the field'. If every prospective SX90R buyer walked into the store armed with a cigarette paper and the knowledge of how to use it, none of these iffy horns would have seen the light of day...they'd all have been sent back. Likewise, Ref.54 alto buyers will know to check the fitment of the crook; Yamaha Z series buyers will know to check the tuning; Earlham buyers the action, and so on. That's the fundamental principle of the reviews - so people know exactly what they're buying into and they walk out of the store with the very best horn they could have bought...whatever their choice may be. Steve Howard

Re: Rolled Tone Holes by connsaxman_jim on 3/6/2006 10:11:03 AM "Steve, I think you are missing my point here. What I am saying is that the brass should be able to accept the heat needed to melt the solder to attach the tone rings without changing the structure of the brass, and therefore causing warpage, IF the heat and solder are applied properly." ......We already know what's required to change the structure of the brass ( temporarily, at least ), but heating or cooling produces a dimensional change. During soldering that dimensional change can be locked in as the solder sets before the base metal can fully return to its nominal dimensions, with the soldered-on part acting as a form of clamp. Carry out that operation enough times on the same piece and the distortions can be visibly evident. When working on Adolph Sax saxophones I have found that refitting more than three tone holes adjacent to each other can result in a slight bend to the body ( typically upwards, along the line of tone holes ). "First of all, the concern isn't the key cups, the concern is for the tone holes. If the pad is leaking, and there is no sign of warpage or wear to the tone hole, then inspecting the key cup would be the next logical step, wouldn't it? You CAN NOT measure the amout of warpage with a block. You can't just look at it and say that it's not level! It may in fact look unlevel, It may BE unlevel, but by how much? They can be unlevel and the HORN STILL PLAYS FINE!" ......Right - you start with the tone holes. Why? Because unless they're level you're on a hiding to nothing. Let's get this very clear - the tone holes are the engine of a saxophone. The basis for the seal is a flat pad in flat cup abutting a flat tone hole. There is no room for discussion on that principle - from flap pads to pewter cups, right through to free-floating pivoted pads and standard shellacked pads...the underlying principle for a good, reliable seal is flat to flat. I think you're confusing 'measuring' with 'testing'. I can detect a leak by sight ( I can often detect a leak by ear, by the sound a pad makes as it closes ), and I can detect a leak by means of a feeler or a light. In all cases a leak, if present, will be detected. A gap between the pad and the tone hole sufficient to allow the free passage of a cigarette paper is enough to show as a drop-off in tonal performance and note stability. It's unlikely to stop a horn dead, but it will cause difficulties further down the instrument. The more gaps you have, or the larger they are, the more problems you will have. It is indeed possible to have uneven tone holes and a good seal - but this relies on the pad matching the profile of the tone hole. This can be done by manipulating the pad ( backing up ) or by deforming the cup to match the profile of the tone hole. This is not a reliable state of affairs, as the pad shrinks and expands all the time. You can get away with it, but not for very long - and it's the sort of bodge that's more the province of a tired old banger rather than a spiffy new horn. This is the only option for addressing the problem on the SX90R horns...unless you want to bash dents in the body. This is all discussed in the article than accompanies the review in question. Can you really not look at a tone hole and say whether or not it's level? Whenever I evaluate a horn for repair I always do so in the company of the client. I like to involve them in the process...show them what's wrong, discuss the techniques and options. I often point out dodgy tone holes and make a point of showing them. I haven't ever come across a client who's said "Nope, can't see a thing". "That's were geometric dimensioning and tolerancing comes into play. In order for a shaft, for example, to work, it must fall within a certain diameter and straigtness tolerance. It can be oversize or undersize, slightly out of roundness, and still work just fine. My insistance on measuring the tone holes with a dial indicator is that any engineer would want to know how far off the tone holes are." .....The tolerance of a tone hole should be less than that which forms a leak when placed against a flat pad. Every repairer right around the world uses one of two methods - the feeler or the leak light. I consider ( for a variety of reasons ) the feeler to be more effective. The leak light could be considered a far more demanding test in certain circumstances. Knowing how far out a tone hole is is of no use to the repairer. There's no way you can translate that measurement into a repair technique - unless you intend to mill the offending hole flat, and that would be silly. And if you think a warp of 1.5mm at its nadir requires a shim of 1.5mm card behind the pad, you'd be wrong. In any event it's insufficient to merely measure the maximum depth of the warp, what needs to be ascertained ( if you need a measurement ) is the volume of the warp. Such figures are, of course, useless to anyone - the repairer simply needs to know that there's a warp to be corrected by the usual means, and the player only needs to know there's a sodding great gap you can shove a fiver through that's screwing up the low notes. "I'm sure Keilwerth has a tolerance for these tone holes, and the horns are probably tested before the posts are soldered on and the keys and pads installed. This is one of the questions that I asked in my email which I am hoping to get a reply to soon." .....If that were the case then such anomalies would not exist. As stated in the review, I suspect they rely on the accuracy of the tone hole mill, without contemplating the effect of hand fitting a ring afterwards. Indeed, they might not even have considered the possibility that the milling process itself is the cause ( flexing ). They aren't alone in this respect - though in the case of the SX90R the tone ring precludes any easy repair. There is nothing magical or technically marvellous about producing level tone holes. "I can test a tone hole with a dial indicator and have it test within .002 of an inch, which is less than a sheet of paper. Depending on how I place a block over the tone hole, I can show that gap to be considerably larger than it is. That's why they make precision tools for measuring such things!" ......The block need only duplicate the action and general width of the pad. There are two planes in operation - that of the surface of the tone hole and that of the face of the pad. Assuming a flat cup ( it's a brand new horn, the cups should be flat ) these two planes should meet exactly and form a seal. The pad should do so under gravity ( though in practice it's wise to make some compensation for the required play in the action ). But go look around, ask around - you'll find experienced repairers the world over using this exact same test. "I would play the horn. How does it play? How does it sound? Would you spend $2,000 on a car without seeing it first? Wouldn't you want to drive it? Look over the tone holes and the pads. If the horn plays well then there probably isn't a problem. Buy from a reputable dealer; a dealer that you can count on for service later. Read your warrenty information, and trust that the manufacturer will honor that warrenty and stand behind their product. I've found that most often they will. Most manufactures want to satisfy their customers, even at a cost to them." .....I mentioned on a forum once about a client who'd bought a certain make of horn and wasn't that happy with it. Within 24 hours I had an email from the manufacturers asking to be put in touch with that client to rectify the problem. I had another client bring in a Yamaha horn, one year old, with severe deterioration of the lacquer. I gave him a written appraisal and sent him back to the manufacturers - they replaced the horn. I've got lots of examples on my books where manufacturers have stepped in to resolve problems - some through my having acted as a representative, others through manufacturers noting my comments here and there. In spite of having had contact with Keilwerth on several occasions, no offer to redress the problems on the reviewed horns has ever been forthcoming. In a way it's a golden opportunity gone to waste. Think of the PR you could generate with the right kind of gesture. "Iffy horn? No problem - another one on its way!". And it's only what, 9 or so horns ( so far )? They could afford it out of the petty cash box. I've had flat denials from Keilwerth. It's no skin off my nose, I'm not personally affected by the issue, but I think it's the sort of thing people have a right to know about. I have a few ideas as to why they can't afford to address the problem - and they're explained in the review. "So tell me Steve, have you ever found any significant problems with any Selmer horns? What about the Mark VII and the intonation problems experienced with them? I couldn't help but notice that NONE of the horns you mentioned here were Selmers." .....You mean like the dreadful sprung rod screws? The clunky upper C# mech? The wobbly crook on the Ref.54 alto? You seem to have a thing about Selmers? Did someone called Selmer once pinch your dinner money or something? Why would I mention Selmers here anyway - this is about the Keilwerth SX90R? Oh, and I don't buy into that "Well, no-one else is perfect" kind of attitude, like it's some kind of excuse. Doesn't matter who makes the horn, if I see something that I don't think is right I'll say so. You personally instigated this debate by referring to my review of the SX90R as "a bunch of BULLS@#T!!!" - I got to hear about it and called you out on it. Steve Howard

I'm going to wall paper my room with your posts. What that you say, "read them?" hahahahha ya right. maybe if I get some time off work. Heres some online tech I will share with you, stop quoting so much. Try smaller quotes. If I wanted to friggen read the original post I will. It's not like your quoting Plato.